Ottoman Hancer for translation

[ariel]

This configuration of a handle is often attributed to Albania.
Any evidence pro or con?

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

This configuration of a handle is often attributed to Albania.
Any evidence pro or con?

Pro
These daggers were very popular with Albanian mercenaries Bashi Bazouk.
You can see many paintings and engravings with them carrying these daggers.

Con
These daggers were in fact Ottoman Turkish.
Nevertheless according to Kwiatek's translation, some of them were made in the provinces like Syria.

Kubur

[mariusgmioc]

THANK YOU KWIATEK FOR YOUR HELP!

Now regarding Ariel's question, I think part of the answer is in the translation itself.

My theory is that wherever the Ottoman army went, they went there fully armed... and accompanied by skilled swordsmiths and gunsmiths necessary to repair the weapons damaged in combat. (This is based on the logic that they did not carry immense stocks of replacement weapons to simply replace the damaged ones with new stock, neither had they access to 2 day DHL/UPS/FedEx deliveries to be able to send their damaged weapons back to Turkey for repair and get them back in time for the next battle.)

And as soon as they conquered new territories, they established occupation garrisons that were manned with soldiers and... the smiths that accompanied them.

And this I believe explains how the Balkans have become a place of weapons production. This is supported by the fact that the Balkans were not known for their weapons production in the Middle Ages, but became known for that only AFTER the Ottoman occupation.

And I think this might be the case with other Ottoman occupied territories as well... like Syria in this case.

And that's how we end up with Turkish Ottoman weapons that were produced not in Turkey, but abroad.

Yet, I consider these weapons Turkish... unless they can be clearly diferentiated, either documented or stylistically from their Turkish counterparts. It will be impossible to differentiate a Yataghan made in Izmir by a Turkish smith from another Yataghan made in the Balkans, by the same smith that accompanied Ottoman army.

[mariusgmioc]

On second thoughts, I would like to add that these daggers are very similar to the Persian khanjars and have absolutely no correspondence in any early Balcanic weaponry.

So I think the attribution of these daggers to the Balkans is completely wrong, like the attribution to the so called ottoman "court daggers"... for example (that in Turkey are called Kama - see the fragment of a photo from the Istanbul Military Museum - pointing out clearly to their Persian/Caucasian origin).

[mariusgmioc]

Now regarding Osman Nuri Pasha, citing from Wikipedia:

He served in Crimea, where his bravery secured him a promotion as First Lieutenant. After the end of the war (February 1856), Osman was appointed to the General Staff and, a year later (1857), had risen to the rank of Captain with the title of Bey. In 1859 he was appointed as a military representative in the forming of the cadastral and census map of the Ottoman Empire, a job he fulfilled for the next two years.

In 1861, Osman was sent to Beirut Vilayet, where a rebellion had been started by Yusuf Ekrem in Syria.

I wonder if it was the same. But then the years won't match as in 1868, he was promoted to the rank of Major-General with the title of Pasha...

Or may it be Osman Hamdi Bey?

On the other hand, I assume Osman was quite a common name in the Ottoman army and there might heve been another one with the title of Bey.

[motan]

Hi,
Interesting to know the provenance. If indeed Damascus, Syria, it put all the conventional knowledge that this type of dagger is ALBANIAN in doubt.
I personally don't know why we would not believe that. It is true that in Damascus they produced many Ottoman weapons in all styles according to demands of clients, but these were mostly second rate imitations of original (Kindjals, Persian Shamshirs etc.) and of mediocre quality. This is certainly one not second rate. The scabbard, if original, is Syrian/Iraqi/Kurdish style because of the silver work, the tip and the row of turquoise beads. Similar to scabbards of high-end Kurdish daggers.
About the date: I really don't know what you think reasonable or logical, but it clearly is 195 and not anything else. Whether this makes sense or not is beside the point.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by motan

It is true that in Damascus they produced many Ottoman weapons in all styles according to demands of clients, but these were mostly second rate imitations of original (Kindjals, Persian Shamshirs etc.) and of mediocre quality.

Hi Motan,

I disagree you have amazing daggers and swords from Syria, Egypt and North Africa. I think you refer to very late 19th c and 1900 Syrian productions.

Originally Posted by motan

The scabbard, if original, is Syrian/Iraqi/Kurdish style because of the silver work, the tip and the row of turquoise beads. Similar to scabbards of high-end Kurdish daggers.

Again I disagree the scabbard is very Turkish and no suprise if you have some very similar scabbards in Ottoman Bagdad. The only link to Iraqi daggers is the row of turquoise I agree.

Originally Posted by motan

About the date: I really don't know what you think reasonable or logical, but it clearly is 195 and not anything else. Whether this makes sense or not is beside the point.

For the date you have hundred of Ottoman dates where the 2 is inverted and looks like a 6. I think you have some on this forum...

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

these daggers are very similar to the Persian khanjars and have absolutely no correspondence in any early Balcanic weaponry.
So I think the attribution of these daggers to the Balkans is completely wrong,

I fully agree!

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

like the attribution to the so called ottoman "court daggers"... for example (that in Turkey are called Kama - see the fragment of a photo from the Istanbul Military Museum - pointing out clearly to their Persian/Caucasian origin).

Well court daggers with straigth blades were Bosnians, on your photo its an old Turkish dagger and the kama is a kind of kindjal if i'm not mistaken... So we are talking about 3 different things...

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well court daggers with straigth blades were Bosnians, on your photo its an old Turkish dagger and the kama is a kind of kindjal if i'm not mistaken... So we are talking about 3 different things...

Nope! They were not!

They were Turkish, and inspired by the Persian/Caucasian Qama... which is the same weapon like the Kindjal

Qama called in Persia, Georgia, Turkey
Kindjal called in Daghestan, Azerbaidjan, Russia
Pretty much like Khanjar in Oman and Jambiya in Yemen... but essentially the same weapon.

[motan]

Hi Kubur,
I mostly agree with you. The problem starts with the concept of Ottoman weapons. Turkey must have had centers of production, but weapons were made throughout the Ottoman empire, often in local style, or sometimes in local style imitating another local style of a different region. So, is a pre-wwi Syrian dagger per definition Ottman? Is a Kindjal made in Damascus Caucasian, Syrian or Ottoman?
You are right about Damascus. It was a center of high quality production before 1800, but very few daggers of high quality are designated as Syrian. Certainly this one is of high quality and if it says "made in Damascus", why should I not believe that?
As for the date, most of you think these daggers must be from the 19th century. Still, the blades do not look like Persian, they are made of high quality wootz, like the court daggers. Does anyone know centers of wootz production west of Persia? To me, the numbers could be (1)195 = 1781. Then it is what it looks like. Inverted 6 is possible if this is not a date, because (1)695 is still in the future.
Anyway, it looks like an Albanian type dagger made in Damascus, most probably ordered by an Albanian commander named Osman in late 18th. century. As for the question of Albanian type vs Persian/Caucasian. mmm. I don't know.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

but became known for that only AFTER the Ottoman occupation.
And I think this might be the case with other Ottoman occupied territories as well... like Syria in this case.

I disagree, as you know well Damascus steel is not something Ottoman... Syrian weapons were higthly valued before the 16thc.

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

It will be impossible to differentiate a Yataghan made in Izmir by a Turkish smith from another Yataghan made in the Balkans, by the same smith that accompanied Ottoman army.

I disagree, Ottoman army and weapons from the 15th c. were different from the 19th c. So we cannot say that weapons from the conquest were similar to those of the 19thc.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I disagree, as you know well Damascus steel is not something Ottoman... Syrian weapons were higthly valued before the 16thc.



I disagree, Ottoman army and weapons from the 15th c. were different from the 19th c. So we cannot say that weapons from the conquest were similar to those of the 19thc.

I think you misunderstood my posting.

I was refering to the atribution of these daggers to the Balkans.
And I am pretty sure that Turkish smiths did work wootz damascus, but I did not make any reference to that.

As with regards with the other remark, I did not say that weapons from the 15th century are similar to those from the 19th century.

I said that weapons done by a blacksmith in Izmir for example won't be distinguishable from weapons made BY THE SAME BLACKSMITH in the Balkans.

So what are you disagreeing with?!