Afghani pulwar: old and ( perhaps) revealing

Battara · 27th December 2019, 04:59 AM

Thanks for posting these Ariel. I know that the cupped parts of Indonesian piso pedangs come from Indian influence like these.

ariel · 27th December 2019, 04:35 PM

Yes, Indians brought it to Sumatra together with Hulu Meu Apet ( original Gulabhati).
BTW, is it piso pEdang or piso pOdang? I remember a version that Podang was derived from Portuguese espadao ( -ao pronounced as -ang), "a sword". We have Portuguese gurus here, let them enlighten us.

Sword with both of those handles seem to have a whiff of European influence, with Achenese Peudeung often carrying European blades. Apparently, it was not popular there; the locals preferred swords that were heavy in their distal end to amplify their slashing power.

Battara · 27th December 2019, 07:38 PM

I stand corrected and I think your spelling is the correct one - piso podang.

Thanks for catching that one .

ariel · 27th December 2019, 10:10 PM

Not at all: it's my autistic obsessive-compulsive demon raising its head:-)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th December 2019, 11:27 AM

Difficult to see exactly the way this hilt developed but I tend to think it was closed originally but in some the top fell off thus the open examples available. Were these strange pommels not used as fillers for seeds or small pebbles? in fact below is a turbaned or ball pommel and it indeed is filled with small pebbles or seeds ...

Pulouar is a Hindu word meaning flower from its more accurate spelling PHULA. Tulvar probably came from the same word. I wondered if it was from the Poppy? I show the poppy seed box below>>> is this perhaps the origin of the pommel in this case?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...7&page=4&pp=30 illustrates a number of similarities and on the Blade at Ariels example it has peculiar parallel lines. Are these representative of the tears of the afflicted grooves and in the copper/brass inlaid dots are these pearls or tears in solid form?

mahratt · 28th December 2019, 12:24 PM

Ibrahiim al Balooshi, original and beautiful version.

ariel · 28th December 2019, 03:23 PM

Ibrahiim,
We have already went thru a fanciful theory of the meaning and importance of “ phul” ( see topic “On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types”).
We can also consider the possibility that perhaps the very word “pulwar” is a phonetically -mistaken variant of “ Tulwar” that entered European books either through a leaden ear of a European traveler, or through a pitch-perfect ear of the same traveler listening to a toothless Afghani. Indeed, the locals only shrug their shoulders in incomprehension when being asked about “ pulwar”: they call this saber “ shamshir”. The calamity of a straight-bladed peshkabz allegedly called “ Karud” is an example how phonetic tricks can find their way into European books and usage:-)

The connection between poppyseed boxes and hemispheric Afghani pommels seems unlikely, IMHO: those boxes are fully spherical ( as in your example). Had your suggestion been the case, we would have seen predominance of spherical form, but in reality they are almost as rare as hen’s teeth. Local and rare variants of spherical pommels stemming from hemispherical ones can be seen in other cultures: Sumatran Piso Podang’s open hemispherical cup became solid spherical one on Borneo Iban analogs.

Any hypothesis may be original and beautiful, but it does not make is plausible.

28th December 2019, 11:27 AM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Difficult to see exactly the way this hilt developed but I tend to think it was closed originally but in some the top fell off thus the open examples available. Were these strange pommels not used as fillers for seeds or small pebbles? in fact below is a turbaned or ball pommel and it indeed is filled with small pebbles or seeds ... Pulouar is a Hindu word meaning flower from its more accurate spelling PHULA. Tulvar probably came from the same word. I wondered if it was from the Poppy? I show the poppy seed box below>>> is this perhaps the origin of the pommel in this case? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...7&page=4&pp=30 illustrates a number of similarities and on the Blade at Ariels example it has peculiar parallel lines. Are these representative of the tears of the afflicted grooves and in the copper/brass inlaid dots are these pearls or tears in solid form? Attached Images Last edited by Battara; 30th December 2019 at 12:06 AM. Reason: link to commercial website

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27th December 2019, 04:59 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Thanks for posting these Ariel. I know that the cupped parts of Indonesian piso pedangs come from Indian influence like these.

27th December 2019, 04:35 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, Indians brought it to Sumatra together with Hulu Meu Apet ( original Gulabhati). BTW, is it piso pEdang or piso pOdang? I remember a version that Podang was derived from Portuguese espadao ( -ao pronounced as -ang), "a sword". We have Portuguese gurus here, let them enlighten us. Sword with both of those handles seem to have a whiff of European influence, with Achenese Peudeung often carrying European blades. Apparently, it was not popular there; the locals preferred swords that were heavy in their distal end to amplify their slashing power.

27th December 2019, 07:38 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I stand corrected and I think your spelling is the correct one - piso podang. Thanks for catching that one .

27th December 2019, 10:10 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Not at all: it's my autistic obsessive-compulsive demon raising its head:-)

28th December 2019, 12:24 PM	#6
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Ibrahiim al Balooshi, original and beautiful version.

28th December 2019, 03:23 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ibrahiim, We have already went thru a fanciful theory of the meaning and importance of “ phul” ( see topic “On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types”). We can also consider the possibility that perhaps the very word “pulwar” is a phonetically -mistaken variant of “ Tulwar” that entered European books either through a leaden ear of a European traveler, or through a pitch-perfect ear of the same traveler listening to a toothless Afghani. Indeed, the locals only shrug their shoulders in incomprehension when being asked about “ pulwar”: they call this saber “ shamshir”. The calamity of a straight-bladed peshkabz allegedly called “ Karud” is an example how phonetic tricks can find their way into European books and usage:-) The connection between poppyseed boxes and hemispheric Afghani pommels seems unlikely, IMHO: those boxes are fully spherical ( as in your example). Had your suggestion been the case, we would have seen predominance of spherical form, but in reality they are almost as rare as hen’s teeth. Local and rare variants of spherical pommels stemming from hemispherical ones can be seen in other cultures: Sumatran Piso Podang’s open hemispherical cup became solid spherical one on Borneo Iban analogs. Any hypothesis may be original and beautiful, but it does not make is plausible.