On the Flyssa

ariel · 10th June 2019, 12:31 AM

If we are sill talking about a flissa dagger marked “Napoli”, there is no need to postulate Ottoman or Greek roots.
There was an old Neapolitan cutler dynasty named Labruna. In the mid- 19 century Giuseppe Labruna produced high end regulation swords for the military, but his forte was Ottoman weapons. He even made yataghans for Austro-Hungarian Croat Pandours. Thus, a flissa would not be a surprise. My bet is that if this flissa dagger could be carefully examined, there might be even his stamp. His descendants continued into the 20 century, but this is too new for me and I do not know the details about them.

Kubur · 10th June 2019, 09:13 AM

Thank you Jim, you're a wise man and a gentleman as always!

Ariel I think you nailed it. Just for comparison the French Bichaqs made by Manceaux, Paris sold by Oriental arms...

Best,
Kubur

Jim McDougall · 11th June 2019, 10:04 PM

Thank you very much Kubur!

You and Ariel have pointed out a key phenomenon of late 18th early 19th c. the production of Ottoman style arms for officers of elite cavalry units in Europe who favored flamboyant 'oriental' fashion and weaponry.
The Austro-Croat Pandours were a prime example and this explains the occurrence of these European marks etc. on what might otherwise seem Ottoman or even Asian.

motan · 21st June 2019, 11:30 AM

Hello,
I saw this dagger that was auctioned yesterday, but I didn't buy it. I am adding it to the thread because this is clearly a Flyssa/Bichak (not Yatagan) hybrid.
My best guess is that it was made in Algeria in Bichak form for some reason, though it is clearly a Flyssa.
Jim, I am not claiming that this has to do with the origin of the Flyssa - it does not look even nearly old enough. I just want to suggest that Ottoman and North African styles were connected. It makes sens if you think of the history of these places and the maritime traffic between them, but here is an actual piece that shows it.

Jim McDougall · 21st June 2019, 04:48 PM

Thank you very much Motan! that is a most helpful entry, and very applicable here. I had honestly not considered the 'bichaq' in the flyssa scenario before Kubur and Ariel brought it to my attention, and while effectively a 'knife' it certainly fits in with the flyssa 'spectrum'.

What you note on Ottoman presence and influences in North Africa is of course well observed. The Ottomans were very present throughout the North African littoral and this 'empire' was far reaching carrying their influences throughout.

As you note, while not necessarily an element of flyssa development, this weapon reflects the overall influences that were likely present in its development. It is as also noted, not necessarily of great age, but it must be remembered that traditional weapon forms typically drew from those of long ago.

It is well known that the proper terms and nomenclature are often confounding in discussing these weapons, but your method of describing them in explanatory manner is much appreciated, as is this excellent entry.
Thank you very much,
Jim

10th June 2019, 09:13 AM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Thank you Jim, you're a wise man and a gentleman as always! Ariel I think you nailed it. Just for comparison the French Bichaqs made by Manceaux, Paris sold by Oriental arms... Best, Kubur Attached Images

21st June 2019, 11:30 AM	#4
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hello, I saw this dagger that was auctioned yesterday, but I didn't buy it. I am adding it to the thread because this is clearly a Flyssa/Bichak (not Yatagan) hybrid. My best guess is that it was made in Algeria in Bichak form for some reason, though it is clearly a Flyssa. Jim, I am not claiming that this has to do with the origin of the Flyssa - it does not look even nearly old enough. I just want to suggest that Ottoman and North African styles were connected. It makes sens if you think of the history of these places and the maritime traffic between them, but here is an actual piece that shows it. Attached Images

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10th June 2019, 12:31 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If we are sill talking about a flissa dagger marked “Napoli”, there is no need to postulate Ottoman or Greek roots. There was an old Neapolitan cutler dynasty named Labruna. In the mid- 19 century Giuseppe Labruna produced high end regulation swords for the military, but his forte was Ottoman weapons. He even made yataghans for Austro-Hungarian Croat Pandours. Thus, a flissa would not be a surprise. My bet is that if this flissa dagger could be carefully examined, there might be even his stamp. His descendants continued into the 20 century, but this is too new for me and I do not know the details about them.

11th June 2019, 10:04 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Thank you very much Kubur! You and Ariel have pointed out a key phenomenon of late 18th early 19th c. the production of Ottoman style arms for officers of elite cavalry units in Europe who favored flamboyant 'oriental' fashion and weaponry. The Austro-Croat Pandours were a prime example and this explains the occurrence of these European marks etc. on what might otherwise seem Ottoman or even Asian.

21st June 2019, 04:48 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Thank you very much Motan! that is a most helpful entry, and very applicable here. I had honestly not considered the 'bichaq' in the flyssa scenario before Kubur and Ariel brought it to my attention, and while effectively a 'knife' it certainly fits in with the flyssa 'spectrum'. What you note on Ottoman presence and influences in North Africa is of course well observed. The Ottomans were very present throughout the North African littoral and this 'empire' was far reaching carrying their influences throughout. As you note, while not necessarily an element of flyssa development, this weapon reflects the overall influences that were likely present in its development. It is as also noted, not necessarily of great age, but it must be remembered that traditional weapon forms typically drew from those of long ago. It is well known that the proper terms and nomenclature are often confounding in discussing these weapons, but your method of describing them in explanatory manner is much appreciated, as is this excellent entry. Thank you very much, Jim