The use of European RAPIER blades in Maratha Pata and Khanda swords

[fernando]

C'mon Jim, don't misguide me ...
Isn't the Firangi a different thing; the Dhup or Sukhella, changing its name to Firangi when with an European imported blade? European but not English, as the Mahrathas were not in favour of their blades. Famous commander Angrey is quoted as saying that English blades were only fit to cut butter.
Tell me i am not wrong, Jim .

[ariel]

Khanda... What's in the name?
If we adhere to Stone and Rawson, then.. it is straight, has a a basket handle, spatulate tip, edge reinforcements with the resultant one-and-a half edge, etc.
However, here are 3 swords from the Elgood's Jodhpur book: all labeled as Khanda, all with " tulwar" 17 century handles, blades 16-17 century. One is single-edged, another double-edged, and a third one altogether saber-like. Obviously, he got the names from somewhere, and I tend to believe his veracity and judgement.
I was puzzled and asked him for an explanation. His response was that it was all in the local language use.

[ariel]

Kind of continuing ( this is more for Fernando).
Three Indian swords of mine.
Top to bottom:

Classical " Stone-Rawson-Pant's" Khanda

Khanda's old variant ( predecessor?), 18th century the latest, more likely 14-16th: it traditionally goes as Patissa in European sources.

The lowest one is Firangi with a European rapier blade ( see markings). In Deccan it was called Dhup, in Northern India it was Asa Shamshir.

And this opens yet another can of worms: apparently, the word " rapier" was used in Germany, whereas in Italy, Spain and France the very same sword was called spada, espada and epee ( all of which meant simply " sword" in their respective languages).
These cut-and-thrust weapons ( broadswords?) were popular during the late Renaissance times, but in ~ 17-18th centuries got out of fashion and were replaced by a purely thrusting smallsword ( "court sword", "dress sword"),with a needle-like blade based on newer fencing systems. Despite being still called rapiers, they were not suitable for Indian use where a cut was the king. A minor modification of the smallsword's blade gave birth to Colichemard. Having deeply blued, almost black, handle the same smallsword was called in Germany Trauerdegen ( "mourning sword"), which is still in use in Northern Germany during funeral processions.

The bottom line, not only in India, but in Europe as well one encounters same weapon called by different names depending on the language, location, intended function etc.

Likely, the same principle was operating in India with Jamadhar, Katar, Katara, Narsing-Moth and Maustika . Bich'hwa, Baku and Vinchu are established examle. Probably, Chillanum and Jamadhar Katari might have followed the same suit.
Sorry for digressing from the topic.

[fernando]

Thank you Ariel,
Do i see my point prevailing in that, associating the same blade mounting style to either Pata and Khanda, is a flaw ... such as extensive to what this thread title implies.
I do not have Pant or (this) Elgood; my sources may not be top stars but, you know, those who don't have a dog ... hunt with a cat
I never had a Khanda ... but once had a Firangi.

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[ariel]

Sorry Fernando, but I seem to miss the gist of your question. So let me reinforce mine.

My point was that our definition of Khanda according to Stone/Egerton is unnecessarily rigid. Perhaps down South Khandas were uniformly “ classic”, but up North the same word applied to dramatically different examples. Indeed, your reference to German’s book mentions Tulwar handles. Elgood goes even farther. To simplify: physical objects may or may not be identical in appearance, but languages rule.


I have seen Patas with European blades, but have never seen one with a Tulwar handle: always a basket one and riveted to the blade.

Thanks for you trust in my ability to understand Portuguese, but my entire vocabulary is limited to Bom Dios, Vinho Verde and Obregado. Said in this order and in rapid succession it always guaranteed me a drink in any bar:-)

[fernando]

As i have said Ariel, (אריאל=Lion of God) my Hebrew almost so good as your Portuguese; my authors are not top stars, neither is the way they put their works. I have used a sub-reference (?); didn't notice the misguidance. The correct weapon was uploaded in post #8 (first picture) and the right description is:

.

[Jim McDougall]

In beginning this thread, the objective was to determine the use of European RAPIER blades, the extremely narrow types well known on cup and swept hilt rapiers, on Indian swords such as the 'khanda' and the 'pata'.

Further, to determine if these narrow rapier blades might have been used in thrusting, contrary to my own previously held notions on Indian use of the cut or slash only with no provision for thrusting.

The element of etymology as applied in my post, was toward the sometimes broad use of the term 'rapier' by some period writers, and whether reference to 'rapier' blades might well refer inadvertently to the heavier arming blades of European swords, which sometimes shared similar hilts in their original mounts.

My apologies to readers for the specious 'name game' which I may have unintentionally brought on by this reference to that etymological possibility. This has brought up the inevitably contentious terms which plague the study of Indian edged weapons, with 'firangi' at the fore in this case.

As always, I continue with research toward my original question, whether such narrow rapier blades, which are seen occasionally in khanda and pata, might have actually been used as intended.

One of the salient references I found was in Elgood ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004, p.184) where he notes, "...Tavernier * wrote that the European use of the point in fencing was unknown to the Indians in the 18th and 19thc. The Indians also used a number of cuts that were unknown in western sabre practice".
Further, "..Col. Blacker suggested that the Indian cutting stroke was the only one capable of penetrating the layers of cloth in turbans and quilted jacket armor. The native practice not only requires a stiff wrist, but a stiff though not straight elbow, for a cut that shall disable. If correct this would explain the popularity of the 'gauntlet' sword'.

* Tavernier: Jean Baptiste Tavernier (1605-1689), French gem merchant and traveler, known for his extensive journeys, profound skills at observation , perhaps most famously for the blue diamond he acquired in 1666, which became the notorious Hope Diamond. His journeys in India c. 1630-68.

OBSERVATION:
It would seem that referring to the turban and type of quilted armor were the defenses that the warriors attacking were up against, and clearly a narrow rapier blade would not achieve the necessary result in penetration.....it was the powerful cut of the warrior which did.

Another reference to the blades in the gauntlet swords (pata) in Pant (op.cit. p.62) notes;
"..the patta has a long flexible, regularly tapering straight steel blade, almost always double edged and frequently of European make- generally Italian or Spanish FLAT RAPIER blades". (caps are mine).

OBSERVATION:
Here, in foot note, it states a pata bearing the sign of Andrea Ferara , the famed 16th century Venetian smith appears, signature forged.
This of course denotes one of the typical 18th century Solingen made blades which were double edged arming or 'broadsword' blades typically seen in Scottish basket hilts.
A pata I have has typical Solingen astral figures engraved on the blade, being another of these 18th century blades used on these swords.

The term 'flat' but paired with the word rapier, is exactly what I mean by the misuse of the rapier term. These 'flat' blades were the DE arming blades discussed here, and I would point out that in the 18th c. Spain was NOT producing blades, they were made in Solingen for Spain, and they were NOT rapier blades. The only 'rapier' blades made were narrow and not 'flat' but with distinct section. Italian blades were typically of the schiavona type, not flat but lenticular, and broadsword type (DE).

Turning to the khanda:

In Pant (p.183), "...the khanda blade, while remaining true to its form, was made with a longer blade after the arrival of the Europeans in India as can be seen in the illustrations of warriors in the 'Nujum al Ulum' which shows longer and thinner blades in the hands of warriors wearing the tall cap of Vijayanagara. The same thin khanda blade also appears in the 'Hamzanama'.The length and narrowness and SPOON SHAPED tip of the blade makes these easily recognizable.
No doubt this was the counter the extremely long blades (by Indian standards) of the European RAPIERS".

OBSERVATION:
Obviously this reference is to the arrival of the Portuguese in the 16th c.
The rapiers were known to reach extraordinary lengths, and were notably impressive to the Marathas. While the khanda seems to have maintained its traditional hilt, by the 17th it had become the 'Hindu basket hilt' with addition of a knuckle (finger) guard between the plated cross guard and pommel.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

... ( this is more for Fernando).
... And this opens yet another can of worms: apparently, the word " rapier" was used in Germany, whereas in Italy, Spain and France the very same sword was called spada, espada and epee ( all of which meant simply " sword" in their respective languages).
... The bottom line, not only in India, but in Europe as well one encounters same weapon called by different names depending on the language, location, intended function etc....

I would definitely reduce the quantity of worms in what relates Europeans name ambiguities, when comparing to those in the Indian immense multicultural subcontinent. The rapier thing is an isolated case ... at least to support my theory .
As approached in my post #4, in a simplified manner, calling rapier a "sword" in the different idioms, was a reluctant way from fencing masters, or common man's uncertainty, to not address a weapon with such a 'fashionable' term, considering that its form in particularities was under competition, so to say.
I know your Portuguese is good enough to read that:
" É importante notar que a palavra "rapieira" não foi usada pelos mestres Portugueses, Italianos, Espanhóis, e Franceses durante o zénite desta arma, os termos spada, espada e épée (ou éspée) eram usados normalmente (palavras genéricas para "espada") ".
To add that, even nowadays, calling a determined sword a rapier, is so often no more than a fancy (read appealing) attribution.