Pala - translation on the blade

[Richard G]

Kubur,
Thank you, we live and learn.
Regards
Richard

[ariel]

The “ Ali/Zulfiqar” saying is attributed directly to Mohammed. As such, it was and is widely used by Shia and Sunni alike. There is no religious divide here.

Implying that this Pala is Balkan and designating it as Shia is a contradiction in terms: Balkan Muslims were and are overwhelmingly Sunni.

Bektashism was rooted among the Janissaries, but those were forcibly disbanded and their remnants were hunted and killed in and after 1826, well before this Pala was created. Bektashi order was banned throughout the entire Ottoman Empire. It gradually got revived somewhat with the advent of Tanzimat era (1839-1876) but their numbers within the Balkan Muslims was negligible. With total abolition of Bektashism by Ataturk in 1925 they moved to Albania and established their headquarters there.
Are we to believe that this Pala was created after that?

We seem to have a lot of questionable arguments here.......

[TVV]

Ariel is right, the Ali/Zulfiqar inscription was quite popular and used throughout the Ottoman Empire, and cannot really be used to point to a specific area of origin.

Here is one on a yataghan from Asia Minor:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18304

And another one, also on a Turkish yataghan:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4448

And another one on a Bosnian yataghan:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12864

Note the similarity in the style of the coftgari decoration of Jose's yataghan and the pala in this thread.

[Kubur]

I see different levels of knowledge here.
I gave you keys to understand, you can pick up what you want.
I'm sure other members understand very well...

[ariel]

Kubur,
There are two points on which we all agree:
1. This is an Ottoman Pala
2. It is genuinely old, likely 19 century.

But the problem is that in the absence of place of manufacture indicated within the inscription we cannot pinpoint its origin. Ottoman Empire was an early model of small scale “globalization”: there were several foci of mass production of blades of uniform design and distribution across the land: Anatolia proper, adjacent Syria, Bosnia, Bulgaria. We can in some cases pinpoint the origin of the entire weapons: Zeibek yataghans or Bulgarian karakulaks. More often, we can attribute them by the handle: yataghans with Karabela-like handles hint at North Africa, with thinnish rounded ears suggest Greece, with smooth round coral indicate Foca etc.

Palas are significantly more homogeneous: same blade contour, same handle and scabbard, same inscriptions with “ master/owner” having uniformly Muslim names, “Ali/Zulfiqar”, “seven sleepers”, same symbols. Perhaps, only contoured grips ( finger stalls) can swing the likelihood to Balkan origin. Bektashism and Shia/Sunni divide play no role.

Manner of blade inscription had always been very confusing and here we have to utilize our individual “gut feeling”. Alex and myself tilt toward Syria, you tilt toward the Balkans. I just do not see a way for any of us to be certain about the origin of this Pala, and that was the gist of my comments. We can only cast doubt on the validity of our opponent’s arguments but cannot bring up the decisive one in favor of our position. Either of our attributions can be correct, but we just cannot prove it.

Perhaps, we can leave it at that?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In the cartouche over two lines is the Arabic …(which I cannot get the second line of... but the top line says in transliterated English)

Ahmed iliyas farhar sahib al malak al ahad

which means: This is my sword made for me by Ahmad Illyas.

[qusko]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

In the cartouche over two lines is the Arabic …(which I cannot get the second line of... but the top line says in transliterated English)

Ahmed iliyas farhar sahib al malak al ahad

which means: This is my sword made for me by Ahmad Illyas.

Thank you Ibrahiim for translation