Rerajahan soul of the keris

[A. G. Maisey]

Ah yes, John Chang.

Belief can be very powerful.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ah yes, John Chang.

Belief can be very powerful.

What part of what he said above is false ?

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

What part of what he said above is false ?

I believe you are asking the wrong question.

[A. G. Maisey]

Darren, I neither stated nor implied that there was anything false in your quoted passage. I simply commented that belief can be powerful, and I feel that this is an accurate statement.

The thing is this:- you are trying to address the keris from one direction, I am addressing the keris from a different direction. Each of us has certain life experience and knowledge that helps to form our opinions. I have a very lengthy period of experience with people who possess similar perceived abilities to those of Mr. Chang, in fact, I live with one of these people, I have had others who were relatives. We do not all see the world in precisely the same way.

I have spent over 60 years in the study of all things that relate to Jawa. Since 1974 I have spent between one month and six months every year except three, living in Solo in Central Jawa. The perceived abilities of Mr. Chang do not amaze me, nor do they impress me. True, he does appear to possess certain abilities, but from my perspective those abilities have absolutely nothing at all to do with the keris.

I do not have any problem at all with the way in which you are pursuing knowledge of the keris, I believe that you are sincere in your beliefs, and I also believe that if you continue your pursuit of knowledge for long enough you will find that which you are seeking.

[Pusaka]

I think if a person has the ability to sense a keris in a junk shop. Then use their clairvoyant vision to see a Rerajahan buried in the centre of a kris and even be able to see its characters that is not an achievement to be sneezed at. Lets keep it real, none of you guys could do this!

Personally I regard this person to be an expert on keris because you can hand such a person a keris and he can tell you things about that keris that you could never hope to know.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I think if a person has the ability to sense a keris in a junk shop. Then use their clairvoyant vision to see a Rerajahan buried in the centre of a kris and even be able to see its characters that is not an achievement to be sneezed at. Lets keep it real, none of you guys could do this!

Personally I regard this person to be an expert on keris because you can hand such a person a keris and he can tell you things about that keris that you could never hope to know.

Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion; this is your's and that's just fine with all of us I'm sure.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I think if a person has the ability to sense a keris in a junk shop. Then use their clairvoyant vision to see a Rerajahan buried in the centre of a kris and even be able to see its characters that is not an achievement to be sneezed at. Lets keep it real, none of you guys could do this!

Personally I regard this person to be an expert on keris because you can hand such a person a keris and he can tell you things about that keris that you could never hope to know.

Yes Pusaka, LET'S keep it real.
I've seen plenty of video footage of John Chang doing his stuff and i own the Rings of Fire videos. Much of it looks very interesting. He does seem to be able to manipulate his chi energy in unique ways. Am i still a skeptic. Of course. I also happen to be very good friends with a few of world renown stage magicians who can do many of the things shown in those videos through devices of illusion. Now, I'm not saying that Johnny isn't the real deal. He very well could be. But neither you nor i have any firsthand experience with him or any real evidence to prove that one way or another. We just have no way to really tell if those things he might tell us about a keris are real or not. If you think he is on the up and up it is for one reason and one reason only. You BELIEVE in him. That's fine. We all believe in one thing or another with out any empirical evidence to back it up. Much of the world operated on faith and belief.
In the videos i've watched i must say that i like John and i want to believe he is the real deal. That said, one thing i don't believe he is, and i seriously doubt that he would claim to be, is a keris expert. He may well be sensitive and able to read certain energies, but i seriously doubt when it comes right down to it, that he actually knows much about keris themselves.
So let's keep it real, eh? Just because you read or saw in a video that John could sense the energy in a keris and have a clairvoyant vision to see a Rerajahan buried in the centre of a kris and even be able to see its characters does not mean that is what really happened. The maker of the keris is long dead. Anyone could make up any story about any old keris and there is really no way to disprove it, is there? You either believe or you don't believe.
I understand that you want to believe. That is really just fine with me. Believe all you want. But it is important that we don't attempt to present our beliefs as hard fact. Keep the faith, by all means. Live, learn, experience all that you can firsthand. But try not to impose your beliefs on others nor assume what others can and can not do regarding their own sensitivity to such energies.
I do have one piece of personal logic that i would like to throw out into this discussion. You quoted the following from a book (i assume this was written by those Ring of Fire guys?):
"A Fu comes from our own person John said. When we make a
Fu we extend our consciousness and our power into the charm and
that power can serve a specific purpose for example when I
speak to a keris it is actually the spirit of the keris maker whom I
am speaking to this man has, in the past extended a part of his own
life force and spirit into the fu in the heart of the keris."
This would make a lot of sense if one were creating a jimat for oneself (and just so that you understand, i have indeed created many talismans, jimat and magickal weapons for myself over the past 40 or so years that i have been involved with occult sciences). But an empu/pande is creating a keris for another person and probably creates many over the course of their lifetime. What you interpret John as saying here is that the isi is not a separate entity, but a part of the keris maker himself. How does that work for the keris owner in a magickal sense? Why would that person want to communicate with the keris maker through their keris, a weapon, a magickal/spiritual object that has been created in order to facilitate the owner's spiritual growth and well being, bringing specific energies into their life and meant to carry those energies and that of their family line down through the ages as pusaka? (I am, of course, speaking of keris hidup here, not a keris merely created as an item of formal dress or art.) How many parts of themselves do you think an empu has to pass on into the living keris that they make before their energies are tapped? Or do those empus have an infinite resource of spiritual energies to draw from and if it is indeed infinite, then is it truly an entity that is of their own ego or perhaps something far larger and greater than themselves?

[David]

I'm sorry Pusaka. I realize you are probably still digesting my questions and composing responses, but i have a few more, and since you apparently know a lot about this topic (though i am still unsure of your source beyond the Ring of Fire videos) i have a few more.
As a disclaimer let me just say that personally i do in fact believe in this concept of the keris hidup, if for no other reason than the fact that there are so many people who sincerely do. And as Alan stated, belief can be very powerful. Very powerful!
So let's say you do happen upon one of these living keris. You take it to someone like John Chang , or maybe you are developed enough to read it for yourself so you put it under your pillow and communicate with it. So you have a living keris that an empu placed a very specific "Rerajahan" into that has a very specific pamor and Dhapur all designed to bring something very specific to this one man's life in Bali 500 years ago. Now what? It was passed down as pusaka over the centuries, given to the very specific members of each person's family that the keris could jibe with, because certainly these specific energies weren't for everyone, carrying this power and lineage with it. And now you have it. It's not your pusaka now, is it? I mean, you own it, but you have no lineage, not real connection to the piece outside of that. So what now? Is this keris now a power object for you? If so why? How do you use it?
I hear a lot from collectors about the excitement of owning a keris pusaka, often from collectors who are not even members of the culture, let alone family members in the line of inheritance for the keris. You can't just pick up the magical lineage of power in such keris and wield it yourself, can you? If so, to what end? Is it possible that this "most important aspect of keris" is something that we as collectors either can't or have no right to access?
Hopefully you can help me with these questions. Thanks!

[Pusaka]

David, until I started this thread did you know what a Rerajahan was? did you know that these mystical drawings were inserted in keris during construction? I would not blame you if you did not because its not common knowledge. The fact that it is not even mentioned once in this entire forum despite all the years says it all.

Now how did this John Chang guy know that such a "device" was hidden in the keris? Either he made a more then casual study of keris construction or it is as he claimed that he could simply "see" it. The fact that he calls it a FU points in the latter direction.

You say you have watched the video of him, then you know a full team of Scientists was sent to discover if he was a fraud. Could your magician friend you speak of duplicate what john chang does just wearing his underpants with a metal detector passed over his body? My "belief" in John may not have occurred without such rigorous testing. John has refused to communicate any further with the public so its clear he is not after fame. He is also a wealthy man so he is not after money. Nor does he want to teach you anything actually many have sought him out and he has refused to teach them despite large sums of money being offered.

Now to your last question if your thought and breath went into making something you are forever connected to it energetically.

Such an energetic connection can be used by a skilled person to hone in on the maker of the object. John uses this link to speak to the spirit of the dead maker. If he really can communicate with Empu's of the majapahit period then yes he is an expert in keris because what better teacher could you have then direct communication with an empu majapahit?

If your intention from the beginning was to create something to serve Mr X and his family then that is what that ISI will do because that is what you have programmed it to do. In this sense the ISI does not enjoy true free will but it has life. In western magic such an entity is sometimes called a servitor for good reason.

Part of the contract is that the owner will feed the ISI via incense smoke which renews and builds its energy.

The question about the Empu's energy is more complex. It requires a knowledge of mantras. Is the power of a mantra solely derived from the person who utters it or in uttering it is the person tapping into something universal and outside himself? Every breath you take you are tapping into something outside yourself prana (chi) and manus (Li) are two different things however.