Jamdhar katari - a theory

[Mercenary]

Thanks Jim. I only can added that these daggers in huge numbers got to Nepal from Bihar and Bengal along with fakirs after the suppression of their rebellion in 1799.
And not "jamdhar katari". Just "katar" or "katara"/"katarah". Dagger of Kafirs are an another type. I do not know what they are

[ariel]

Mahratt,
I intentionally do not react to your posts and this is my second appeal to you to do the same.
If you want to express your opinion related to my comments on this Forum, first, please keep it to yourself. If unable to do so , please express yourself in a civilized manner , without ad hominem attacks. This is obviously OK on the Russian Forum, but not here.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Mahratt,
I intentionally do not react to your posts and this is my second appeal to you to do the same.
If you want to express your opinion related to my comments on this Forum, first, please keep it to yourself. If unable to do so , please express yourself in a civilized manner , without ad hominem attacks. This is obviously OK on the Russian Forum, but not here.

Ariel,
I know that you deliberately do not answer if you do not have an answer. This is a very convenient position. It seemed to me that this is an open forum, where everyone can express their opinions. I do not express the opinion "about your comments". I lead the discussion. Isn't the forum created to share information and debate using facts?
You personally have not been attacked (In addition to the fact that I asked you to argue your words with facts, and not "play with words").
By the way, You accuse me in what I do "ad hominem attacks", and you yourself speak insultingly about the Russian forum.

However, maybe we will return to the topic of discussion? For example, in the context of traditional Indian culture. Well, or at least we can discuss what is more important for the study of weapons, the images that are on the coins or images on miniatures and other works of art?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Thanks Jim. I only can added that these daggers in huge numbers got to Nepal from Bihar and Bengal along with fakirs after the suppression of their rebellion in 1799.
And not "jamdhar katari". Just "katar" or "katara"/"katarah". Dagger of Kafirs are an another type. I do not know what they are

Thank you so much for the attention to my post in trying to get back to the topic of this thread, the jamdhar-katari, which Stan posted so thoughtfully some 7 years ago.
As I was desperately trying to illustrate amid the rest of this specious katar discussion, the KATARA was indeed the dagger which was illustrated as the dagger of the Kafir people of what is now Nuristan (a province in Eastern Afghanistan). As I noted, I did research on these people, now called Kalash and situated in regions of Chitral to the west in Afghanistan.

In my research I obtained the two volume set of "The Kafirs of Hindu Kush: A Study of the Waigal and Ashkun Kafirs" by Max Klimburg (1999).
In this book these daggers are illustrated and called katara.


I hope I can make this clear enough as it was queried in the original post 7 years ago. The transverse grip dagger we these days call katar…...was originally called jamdhar. Egerton in his writing (1885) for some yet unknown reason termed these H hilt daggers attributed to Nepal the JAMDHAR-KITARI.

What transpired after this appears that the jamdhar term which SHOULD have been used for the many transverse gripped daggers illustrated inexplicably became noted as katars. This profound oversight or error became the ever known term for these daggers in the literature to this day.


The note that the katara daggers got to Nepal via the fakirs rebellion from Bengal is most interesting and I would not dispute that this form was known over many regions in these areas, and surely not exclusive only to the Kafirs any more than people in Nepal. I have always been under the impression that fakirs were not allowed weapons and used their innovative and 'disguised' forms.....but in a formalized insurgence the use of any weapon would be understood.


This again is simply another futile effort to address the topic of the thread originally and avoid further attention to the specious debate digressing presently, and frankly disappointingly ridiculous.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much for the attention to my post in trying to get back to the topic of this thread, the jamdhar-katari, which Stan posted so thoughtfully some 7 years ago.
As I was desperately trying to illustrate amid the rest of this specious katar discussion, the KATARA was indeed the dagger which was illustrated as the dagger of the Kafir people of what is now Nuristan (a province in Eastern Afghanistan). As I noted, I did research on these people, now called Kalash and situated in regions of Chitral to the west in Afghanistan.

In my research I obtained the two volume set of "The Kafirs of Hindu Kush: A Study of the Waigal and Ashkun Kafirs" by Max Klimburg (1999).
In this book these daggers are illustrated and called katara.


I hope I can make this clear enough as it was queried in the original post 7 years ago. The transverse grip dagger we these days call katar…...was originally called jamdhar. Egerton in his writing (1885) for some yet unknown reason termed these H hilt daggers attributed to Nepal the JAMDHAR-KITARI.

What transpired after this appears that the jamdhar term which SHOULD have been used for the many transverse gripped daggers illustrated inexplicably became noted as katars. This profound oversight or error became the ever known term for these daggers in the literature to this day.


The note that the katara daggers got to Nepal via the fakirs rebellion from Bengal is most interesting and I would not dispute that this form was known over many regions in these areas, and surely not exclusive only to the Kafirs any more than people in Nepal. I have always been under the impression that fakirs were not allowed weapons and used their innovative and 'disguised' forms.....but in a formalized insurgence the use of any weapon would be understood.


This again is simply another futile effort to address the topic of the thread originally and avoid further attention to the specious debate digressing presently, and frankly disappointingly ridiculous.

Thank you very much. I will study your post many times. But what do you think, it is correct to compare the dagger of 2nd century and Kafir's dagger of the first post of thread. How old are Kafirs? )))

P.S. Maybe moderator will let Ariel and Mahratt write here in Russian? It is the native language for both, I think it will be better for all.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Thank you very much. I will study your post many times. But what do you think, it is correct to compare the dagger of 2nd century and Kafir's dagger of the first post of thread. How old are Kafirs? )))

P.S. Maybe moderator will let Ariel and Mahratt write here in Russian? It is the native language for both, I think it will be better for all.

I would appreciate that as the research and material I have entered is of considerable time, effort and expense of many years ago and my sharing these notes here are in the spirit of constructive discussion instead of specious debate. Can you please tell me what dagger of 2nd century is referred to?

Without considerable research further it is hard to define how 'old' Kafirs are as the term is likely recent (i.e. last 300 yrs +) but to get into anthropological analysis would be far more complex. The term 'Kafir' as you certainly know means loosely 'infidel' in Islamic parlance, and their exodus from the regions now Nuristan were due to Afghan khanate invasion.


The suggestion to allowing Russian language debate to be included here is as you must know, completely counter productive and I will withhold any further comment toward that suggestion.I do appreciate your effort to maintain focus on the actual topic of this thread.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would appreciate that as the research and material I have entered is of considerable time, effort and expense of many years ago and my sharing these notes here are in the spirit of constructive discussion instead of specious debate. Can you please tell me what dagger of 2nd century is referred to?.

It is the very interesting field of research because the area around modern Afghanistan was the center of culture for centuries. I know a little in the field and it will be very interesting to learn how all of these developed over time.
This dagger:

[ariel]

http://indianfight.com/fighting-ascetics/

Mercenary,
I see that this site is bilingual: English and Russian.
Are you the author of the papers published there?

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

http://indianfight.com/fighting-ascetics/

Mercenary,
I see that this site is bilingual: English and Russian.
Are you the author of the papers published there?

Yes, I write for the site but in popular manner because it is martial art site.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The term 'Kafir' as you certainly know means loosely 'infidel' in Islamic parlance ...

Jim, for a moment i got tangled by the Kafir v Fakir term similarity.
As in several other cases, the term Kafir كافر used by Arab merchants was brought to Africa (by European navigators) and by some parallelism deviated its virtual attribution to a pejorative way to call the natives, where i first became acquainted with it.
Also Fakir seem to have its paralels, like those called Jogues by gentiles and Calândares by the Moors, as often alluded by Portuguese chroniclers. Hindu ascetics, João de Barros (1496-1570) typifies them as "in a mode of philosophers, whom leave the world in low and vile habit going by all places and pilgrimages and some times get apart to do penitence... Their only attire is composed by some skins that only cover their shameful parts". Other chroniclers say that "they only wear capes made of rags found in the trash". Barbosa (1500-1517 in India) says that "they have a good mood and are good looking; never comb their hair and use it braided". Garcia de Orta (1501-158) wrote that "they go floured with ashes all over their body, a means of sanctification; ashes made of cow dung, they sanctify themselves every morning in this way, which they call "curi".
Uploaded is how a Portuguese anonymous navigator artist saw them in the XVI century.
(Codice Casanatense)


.

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, thank you for the insight into the 'fakir' matter. I have of course heard of these unusual mendicants but honestly knew little beyond the almost cliche' images. Great perspective.

Ariel, Mahratt and Mercenary,
Guys thank you so much for working toward better rapport here. You are all sound researchers and great writers in your chosen fields of study and while you may all have differences in cases, I think you enhance your skills with good discussion presenting objective supported evidence and observations which really benefit the readers here including myself. I know I enjoy reading threads which do this on topics I am not familiar with, and good flowing discussion without any personal friction makes all the difference.


I have learned that such sound discussion becomes a learning experience for all both participants and readers, which is the very reason I joined these forums over twenty years ago. It is a wonderful opportunity and privilege for which I am very grateful.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I have always been under the impression that fakirs were not allowed weapons and used their innovative and 'disguised' forms.....but in a formalized insurgence the use of any weapon would be understood.
.

"Fakirs" it is the name given by Europeans to a large group of people including ascetic-warriors. They were really not allowed weapons... but after 1799 and not in Nepal )

http://indianfight.com/fighting-ascetics/

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

"Fakirs" it is the name given by Europeans to a large group of people including ascetic-warriors. They were really not allowed weapons... but after 1799 and not in Nepal )

http://indianfight.com/fighting-ascetics/

Thank you very much for that clarification. This is an area obviously quite obviously misunderstood by many, including myself, so your expertise is appreciated.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

"Fakirs" it is the name given by Europeans to a large group of people including ascetic-warriors. They were really not allowed weapons... but after 1799 and not in Nepal )

http://indianfight.com/fighting-ascetics/

Thank you for the interesting article and very interesting facts on the topic of discussion.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I hope I can make this clear enough as it was queried in the original post 7 years ago. The transverse grip dagger we these days call katar…...was originally called jamdhar. Egerton in his writing (1885) for some yet unknown reason termed these H hilt daggers attributed to Nepal the JAMDHAR-KITARI.
What transpired after this appears that the jamdhar term which SHOULD have been used for the many transverse gripped daggers illustrated inexplicably became noted as katars. This profound oversight or error became the ever known term for these daggers in the literature to this day...

Can you establish a relation in that, according to what i have been told, the term "Kuthar" was used by Rajendralala Mitra (The Antiquaries of Orissa) in 1876, thus earlier than Egerton adopted the term "Katar".


.

[ariel]

An almost literal translation of Jamdhar Katari would be something like “ Sharp-edged cutter of the God of Death”.
This is a purely poetic moniker and as such it cannot be used for any historical or technical analysis or conclusions.

The most frustrating example of such a name is Dhu -l -Fakar ( literally spiny, ridged) the real form of which is still a mystery despite its major significance.

If we take 10 people totally ignorant of Oriental weapons and ask them to draw their images of some fighting implement called “ lion’s tail “ or “scorpion” , we shall get 11 different images having nothing to do with shamshir or bich’hwa.

India is a multiethnic, multilingual country with a millennial history of mass migrations. One needs to be well-versed in its minute details of history and fluent in several of its languages to even start thinking about the meaning of its weapons’ names. Otherwise, it is the lowest degree of the infamous “name game” belonging to a cynically defined “ intellectual masturbation”. We should resign to the fact that we have no idea and either make peace with it or wait for a true specialist.

Elgood’s entry in his Glossary ( see Jodhpur book) consists of 2 words :
“Jamdhar: Katar”. Also, he shows several “Khandas” that have nothing to do with Egerton’s or Stone’s stereotypes.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

An almost literal translation of Jamdhar Katari would be something like “ Sharp-edged cutter of the God of Death”.
India is a multiethnic, multilingual country with a millennial history of mass migrations. One needs to be well-versed in its minute details of history and fluent in several of its languages to even start thinking about the meaning of its weapons’ names. Otherwise, it is the lowest degree of the infamous “name game” ...

Yet the name game, for as much as we (sort of) forget, is an irreplaceable component of our spoken communication, right after we abandoned our ape stage of expressing ourselves by gestures. We have to get hold of alternative tricks like the consuetudinary resource to consider the determined name of one thing as being we are all talking about ... even with exceptions taken into account.
I recall illustreous Professor Agostinho da Silva )1906-1994) in that, every time they asked him his ideas on a subject, he started by recalling the etymology of the term, before unequivocally lecturing on such topic.
I wonder to which extent, if any, India's profusion of languages comprehends Western European tongues but, even if just for fun, it is worthy to note, within the Katar-Kutar saga that, in my lingo we say "Cortar" for cutting, from the Latin Curtãre. Can't deny the resemblance .

[Jim McDougall]

I don't think there can be any doubt that many cognate words diffused widely through cultures as languages and dialects evolved from the root languages over time.
The use of the term katar, regardless of spelling, is not really in question but it seems that Egerton who wrote his book in over 10 years prior to first publication in 1880 (republished 1896) transposed the term from the jamdhar -kitari to the transverse grip jamdhar (we now call katar).

As we cannot say for sure when, in the years compiling his data Egerton made this error, we can presume it was well prior to 1880.

Prior to this time, in India, these transverse grip daggers were known as jamdhar (= tooth of god of death, or to that effect). I was unaware of the use of the term 'kuttar' in Russia in 1860 in cataloging of the holdings of the Tsarskye Selo arsenal, and would be interested to know what the weapon described looked like.
If this was indeed the transverse grip 'jamdhar' type, then we may establish the error(?) to precede Egerton, and question whether Pant (1980) had sound evidence of the jamdhar term being correct for these in the first place.


We know, from the extensive research Jens has done over many years, that the term katar has been in use since about 13th century and of course for a dagger, but what type we do not know as no illustrations exist until much later.


We know that the "Ain I Akbari" , Abu'l Fazi , written in years 1551-1602, had a 'fist dagger' called 'maustika' looking of course like a rudimentary katar.

The term katar seems well represented in a number of Indian languages , where the Tamil 'kattari' became the Sanskrit 'katara' (the a dropped later).

With the 'katar' term this deeply embedded in various other languages specifically referring to the transverse grip daggers, I cannot help but question if the term jamdhar evolved as an alternate term at some point.

In this case Egerton was right all along, and the combining of the two terms jamdar-kitari to describe these curious daggers was perhaps Egerton trying to use both terms due to the character of the hilts.

While the katar has an 'H' shaped hilt it is vertically oriented and meant to be held transversely.

The jamdhar-kitari has an 'H' shaped hilt which is horizontal, that is meant to be gripped in the traditional dagger manner.


So possibly the 'katar' term has been correctly describing these transverse grip daggers all along...….and the conundrum brought up by Pant in 1980 setting off a red herring that has persisted since.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Prior to this time, in India, these transverse grip daggers were known as jamdhar (= tooth of god of death, or to that effect). I was unaware of the use of the term 'kuttar' in Russia in 1860 in cataloging of the holdings of the Tsarskye Selo arsenal, and would be interested to know what the weapon described looked like.
If this was indeed the transverse grip 'jamdhar' type, then we may establish the error(?) to precede Egerton, and question whether Pant (1980) had sound evidence of the jamdhar term being correct for these in the first place.

Jim, in my opinion in the picture that I attached to the subject, it is clearly seen that in the catalog of weapons from Tsarskoye Selo is described the transverse grip 'jamdhar' type... Post № 180

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

We know that the "Ain I Akbari" , Abu'l Fazi , written in years 1551-1602, had a 'fist dagger' called 'maustika' looking of course like a rudimentary katar.

Jim, excuse me, I do not know very well the whole text of "Ain I Akbari", but in the chapter on weapons there is definitely no such dagger.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by fernando

I wonder to which extent, if any, India's profusion of languages comprehends Western European tongues but, even if just for fun, it is worthy to note, within the Katar-Kutar saga that, in my lingo we say "Cortar" for cutting, from the Latin Curtãre. Can't deny the resemblance .

You are not imagining.

Proto-Indo-European (PIE) languages include Greek and Italic. Latin is just one of the offshots of Italic.
“Cutting” and “knife” are very basic words. Such words, necessary for oral communication between the members of very early human communities, seem to share common elements. Mother in Sanskrit is Amba, in most modern Indian languages it is Amma, Maa or Ammee, and in virtually all European languages it does not even require a professional translator:-)
Father in Sanskrit is Pitar ( Latin Pater), water is wodr and fire is paewr or agni ( Lat. ignis) in PIE, etc.

Sir William Jones still rules!

Trick question: who knows why the old name of Iran was Pars ( Persia) , but their language is Farsi? As they say on TV games “The answers will surprise you!”. Hint: it has nothing to do with complex ancient linguistics.

Just for the fun of it:-)

[Ian]

Originally Posted by ariel

... Trick question: who knows why the old name of Iran was Pars ( Persia) , but their language is Farsi? As they say on TV games “The answers will surprise you!”. Hint: it has nothing to do with complex ancient linguistics. ...

Simplified answer. Persian/Persia are exonyms probably first coined by the Greeks around 500 BCE to describe the inhabitants of Pars, then extended to those on the Iranian Plateau. The Romans then adopted the term Persia to describe the same area.


Farsi is an endonym, also derived from the regional name Pars, to describe the main language of Iran.


Ian.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

... “Cutting” and “knife” are very basic words. Such words, necessary for oral communication between the members of very early human communities, seem to share common elements.

Speaking of which, when searching the 1206 pages of Luso-Asiatic Glossary (Monsenhor Sebastião Dalgado 1919) one most surprisingly can not find the term katar (or catar, as the K is absent in Portuguese) as a weapon, but finds (possible) analogies in that the term is related with light slim and fast boats that cut the waves (bolds are mine). Fray João Moura derives it from the Persian Kãtür, which however there are no records of such dictations in Arabic and Persian. Crooke suggests as possible ethym the sanscrit chatura "legere". However Dalgado goes for the version malaiala kattiri or neo-Arico Kãtar, from the sanscrit kartari "scissors" literally cutter, from the verb krt "to cut". Dalgado further opines that this boat could well be called katar, which is employed in various metaphoric senses like, in Concani, truss, pyramid, obelisc.
On the other hand, the term katar (or catar) in his strict wording only appears as Persian-Arabic "qatâr", meaning a set of (often seven) camels or mules, used by cargo collectors that cover all Persia transporting goods from a city to another (Domingos Vieira 1529).
As i first said, among 1250 pages of terms picked or shared with Asians since the XV century. Unless some unknown transliteration prevents from reaching further.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by fernando

Can you establish a relation in that, according to what i have been told, the term "Kuthar" was used by Rajendralala Mitra (The Antiquaries of Orissa) in 1896, thus earlier than Egerton adopted the term "Katar".

In 1860, the word “katar” was used by the Russian researcher Florian Gille in the spelling of “kuttar”, describing the arsenal of Russian Imperators in Tsarskoye Selo.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by fernando

Can you establish a relation in that, according to what i have been told, the term "Kuthar" was used by Rajendralala Mitra (The Antiquaries of Orissa) in 1876, thus earlier than Egerton adopted the term "Katar"...

Not so significant for the matter but, i should have written 1876 instead of 1896.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by fernando

Not so significant for the matter but, i should have written 1876 instead of 1896.

Not so significant for the matter. The example I gave refers to 1860