Jamdhar katari - a theory

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

... Ibn Batuta in fact described jamdhar, but with the blade two cubits long (one metr?). May be it was proto-pata?

Two cubits measure 90 cms., which is also the longest known length of katars. But you are probably right. Unless it was a hybrid of both ... or other period styles; India had/has such immense profusion of weapons !

[Jim McDougall]

It seems it was cleared up years ago (we have been discussing and researching katars here for over 20 yrs) that the jamadhar was actually the transverse gripped dagger we have known collectively as the katar. The error in term seems to have originated with Egerton (1885) who transposed the terms in his description. This was well pointed out by Pant (1980) and noted that despite the proper term 'jamdhar' for the 'katar'......he seems to have juxtaposed the two with the classification of the 'jamdhar/katari'.

As this was the actual topic of this thread when it began, it seems appropriate to reattend to it here.

The jamdhar/kitari is an H shaped hilt on a dagger blade, and as Egerton has described, well known in Nepal (#344-45) I know this form of dagger, actually termed 'katara' is indeed well known there as a good friend from Germany who travelled in Nepal extensively for many years, always found them in great number there.
Also, these were well known in Nuristan( formerly Kafiristan) in India, where they were used by tribes known as Kafirs. These tribes relocated in regions in Chitral and are now known as the Kalash people. In research on them I communicated with tribal elders and others of this heritage.

Image of katara attached.


The katar (jamdhar) we are familiar with seems to have mysteriously appeared much earlier than the examples we know now of 17th-19th c.
and as noted is even described in writings of 13th-14th c. as katar. But do we know what weapon was actually meant? No.

The 'katar' term seems a well used cognate of words for cut or knife etc.


It seems that early examples of katar from Vijayanagara etc. are indeed larger than later examples (I am not familiar with cubits, aside from use describing the ark). It does seem that the hooded examples probably did inspire the eventual evolution of the pata.


The description used as 'dirk' for katar is believed to have derived from the common repurposing of blades, whether broken or otherwise, from full size swords...in the manner of Scottish dirks. We know it was common practice to reue the valuable blades from basket hilts into dirks. When these were proscribed in the 18th c. the dirk was still allowed as it was regarded as utilitarian.

When European blades flooded into India in late 16th-17th c. they were often fashioned into katar blades.


Now all of this is truly DIGRESSION......back to the actual topic here.....the JAMDHAR KATARI .

[Mercenary]

Thanks Jim. I only can added that these daggers in huge numbers got to Nepal from Bihar and Bengal along with fakirs after the suppression of their rebellion in 1799.
And not "jamdhar katari". Just "katar" or "katara"/"katarah". Dagger of Kafirs are an another type. I do not know what they are

[ariel]

Mahratt,
I intentionally do not react to your posts and this is my second appeal to you to do the same.
If you want to express your opinion related to my comments on this Forum, first, please keep it to yourself. If unable to do so , please express yourself in a civilized manner , without ad hominem attacks. This is obviously OK on the Russian Forum, but not here.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Mahratt,
I intentionally do not react to your posts and this is my second appeal to you to do the same.
If you want to express your opinion related to my comments on this Forum, first, please keep it to yourself. If unable to do so , please express yourself in a civilized manner , without ad hominem attacks. This is obviously OK on the Russian Forum, but not here.

Ariel,
I know that you deliberately do not answer if you do not have an answer. This is a very convenient position. It seemed to me that this is an open forum, where everyone can express their opinions. I do not express the opinion "about your comments". I lead the discussion. Isn't the forum created to share information and debate using facts?
You personally have not been attacked (In addition to the fact that I asked you to argue your words with facts, and not "play with words").
By the way, You accuse me in what I do "ad hominem attacks", and you yourself speak insultingly about the Russian forum.

However, maybe we will return to the topic of discussion? For example, in the context of traditional Indian culture. Well, or at least we can discuss what is more important for the study of weapons, the images that are on the coins or images on miniatures and other works of art?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Thanks Jim. I only can added that these daggers in huge numbers got to Nepal from Bihar and Bengal along with fakirs after the suppression of their rebellion in 1799.
And not "jamdhar katari". Just "katar" or "katara"/"katarah". Dagger of Kafirs are an another type. I do not know what they are

Thank you so much for the attention to my post in trying to get back to the topic of this thread, the jamdhar-katari, which Stan posted so thoughtfully some 7 years ago.
As I was desperately trying to illustrate amid the rest of this specious katar discussion, the KATARA was indeed the dagger which was illustrated as the dagger of the Kafir people of what is now Nuristan (a province in Eastern Afghanistan). As I noted, I did research on these people, now called Kalash and situated in regions of Chitral to the west in Afghanistan.

In my research I obtained the two volume set of "The Kafirs of Hindu Kush: A Study of the Waigal and Ashkun Kafirs" by Max Klimburg (1999).
In this book these daggers are illustrated and called katara.


I hope I can make this clear enough as it was queried in the original post 7 years ago. The transverse grip dagger we these days call katar…...was originally called jamdhar. Egerton in his writing (1885) for some yet unknown reason termed these H hilt daggers attributed to Nepal the JAMDHAR-KITARI.

What transpired after this appears that the jamdhar term which SHOULD have been used for the many transverse gripped daggers illustrated inexplicably became noted as katars. This profound oversight or error became the ever known term for these daggers in the literature to this day.


The note that the katara daggers got to Nepal via the fakirs rebellion from Bengal is most interesting and I would not dispute that this form was known over many regions in these areas, and surely not exclusive only to the Kafirs any more than people in Nepal. I have always been under the impression that fakirs were not allowed weapons and used their innovative and 'disguised' forms.....but in a formalized insurgence the use of any weapon would be understood.


This again is simply another futile effort to address the topic of the thread originally and avoid further attention to the specious debate digressing presently, and frankly disappointingly ridiculous.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much for the attention to my post in trying to get back to the topic of this thread, the jamdhar-katari, which Stan posted so thoughtfully some 7 years ago.
As I was desperately trying to illustrate amid the rest of this specious katar discussion, the KATARA was indeed the dagger which was illustrated as the dagger of the Kafir people of what is now Nuristan (a province in Eastern Afghanistan). As I noted, I did research on these people, now called Kalash and situated in regions of Chitral to the west in Afghanistan.

In my research I obtained the two volume set of "The Kafirs of Hindu Kush: A Study of the Waigal and Ashkun Kafirs" by Max Klimburg (1999).
In this book these daggers are illustrated and called katara.


I hope I can make this clear enough as it was queried in the original post 7 years ago. The transverse grip dagger we these days call katar…...was originally called jamdhar. Egerton in his writing (1885) for some yet unknown reason termed these H hilt daggers attributed to Nepal the JAMDHAR-KITARI.

What transpired after this appears that the jamdhar term which SHOULD have been used for the many transverse gripped daggers illustrated inexplicably became noted as katars. This profound oversight or error became the ever known term for these daggers in the literature to this day.


The note that the katara daggers got to Nepal via the fakirs rebellion from Bengal is most interesting and I would not dispute that this form was known over many regions in these areas, and surely not exclusive only to the Kafirs any more than people in Nepal. I have always been under the impression that fakirs were not allowed weapons and used their innovative and 'disguised' forms.....but in a formalized insurgence the use of any weapon would be understood.


This again is simply another futile effort to address the topic of the thread originally and avoid further attention to the specious debate digressing presently, and frankly disappointingly ridiculous.

Thank you very much. I will study your post many times. But what do you think, it is correct to compare the dagger of 2nd century and Kafir's dagger of the first post of thread. How old are Kafirs? )))

P.S. Maybe moderator will let Ariel and Mahratt write here in Russian? It is the native language for both, I think it will be better for all.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Thank you very much. I will study your post many times. But what do you think, it is correct to compare the dagger of 2nd century and Kafir's dagger of the first post of thread. How old are Kafirs? )))

P.S. Maybe moderator will let Ariel and Mahratt write here in Russian? It is the native language for both, I think it will be better for all.

I would appreciate that as the research and material I have entered is of considerable time, effort and expense of many years ago and my sharing these notes here are in the spirit of constructive discussion instead of specious debate. Can you please tell me what dagger of 2nd century is referred to?

Without considerable research further it is hard to define how 'old' Kafirs are as the term is likely recent (i.e. last 300 yrs +) but to get into anthropological analysis would be far more complex. The term 'Kafir' as you certainly know means loosely 'infidel' in Islamic parlance, and their exodus from the regions now Nuristan were due to Afghan khanate invasion.


The suggestion to allowing Russian language debate to be included here is as you must know, completely counter productive and I will withhold any further comment toward that suggestion.I do appreciate your effort to maintain focus on the actual topic of this thread.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would appreciate that as the research and material I have entered is of considerable time, effort and expense of many years ago and my sharing these notes here are in the spirit of constructive discussion instead of specious debate. Can you please tell me what dagger of 2nd century is referred to?.

It is the very interesting field of research because the area around modern Afghanistan was the center of culture for centuries. I know a little in the field and it will be very interesting to learn how all of these developed over time.
This dagger:

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The term 'Kafir' as you certainly know means loosely 'infidel' in Islamic parlance ...

Jim, for a moment i got tangled by the Kafir v Fakir term similarity.
As in several other cases, the term Kafir كافر used by Arab merchants was brought to Africa (by European navigators) and by some parallelism deviated its virtual attribution to a pejorative way to call the natives, where i first became acquainted with it.
Also Fakir seem to have its paralels, like those called Jogues by gentiles and Calândares by the Moors, as often alluded by Portuguese chroniclers. Hindu ascetics, João de Barros (1496-1570) typifies them as "in a mode of philosophers, whom leave the world in low and vile habit going by all places and pilgrimages and some times get apart to do penitence... Their only attire is composed by some skins that only cover their shameful parts". Other chroniclers say that "they only wear capes made of rags found in the trash". Barbosa (1500-1517 in India) says that "they have a good mood and are good looking; never comb their hair and use it braided". Garcia de Orta (1501-158) wrote that "they go floured with ashes all over their body, a means of sanctification; ashes made of cow dung, they sanctify themselves every morning in this way, which they call "curi".
Uploaded is how a Portuguese anonymous navigator artist saw them in the XVI century.
(Codice Casanatense)


.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I have always been under the impression that fakirs were not allowed weapons and used their innovative and 'disguised' forms.....but in a formalized insurgence the use of any weapon would be understood.
.

"Fakirs" it is the name given by Europeans to a large group of people including ascetic-warriors. They were really not allowed weapons... but after 1799 and not in Nepal )

http://indianfight.com/fighting-ascetics/

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

"Fakirs" it is the name given by Europeans to a large group of people including ascetic-warriors. They were really not allowed weapons... but after 1799 and not in Nepal )

http://indianfight.com/fighting-ascetics/

Thank you very much for that clarification. This is an area obviously quite obviously misunderstood by many, including myself, so your expertise is appreciated.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

"Fakirs" it is the name given by Europeans to a large group of people including ascetic-warriors. They were really not allowed weapons... but after 1799 and not in Nepal )

http://indianfight.com/fighting-ascetics/

Thank you for the interesting article and very interesting facts on the topic of discussion.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I hope I can make this clear enough as it was queried in the original post 7 years ago. The transverse grip dagger we these days call katar…...was originally called jamdhar. Egerton in his writing (1885) for some yet unknown reason termed these H hilt daggers attributed to Nepal the JAMDHAR-KITARI.
What transpired after this appears that the jamdhar term which SHOULD have been used for the many transverse gripped daggers illustrated inexplicably became noted as katars. This profound oversight or error became the ever known term for these daggers in the literature to this day...

Can you establish a relation in that, according to what i have been told, the term "Kuthar" was used by Rajendralala Mitra (The Antiquaries of Orissa) in 1876, thus earlier than Egerton adopted the term "Katar".


.

[ariel]

An almost literal translation of Jamdhar Katari would be something like “ Sharp-edged cutter of the God of Death”.
This is a purely poetic moniker and as such it cannot be used for any historical or technical analysis or conclusions.

The most frustrating example of such a name is Dhu -l -Fakar ( literally spiny, ridged) the real form of which is still a mystery despite its major significance.

If we take 10 people totally ignorant of Oriental weapons and ask them to draw their images of some fighting implement called “ lion’s tail “ or “scorpion” , we shall get 11 different images having nothing to do with shamshir or bich’hwa.

India is a multiethnic, multilingual country with a millennial history of mass migrations. One needs to be well-versed in its minute details of history and fluent in several of its languages to even start thinking about the meaning of its weapons’ names. Otherwise, it is the lowest degree of the infamous “name game” belonging to a cynically defined “ intellectual masturbation”. We should resign to the fact that we have no idea and either make peace with it or wait for a true specialist.

Elgood’s entry in his Glossary ( see Jodhpur book) consists of 2 words :
“Jamdhar: Katar”. Also, he shows several “Khandas” that have nothing to do with Egerton’s or Stone’s stereotypes.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

An almost literal translation of Jamdhar Katari would be something like “ Sharp-edged cutter of the God of Death”.
India is a multiethnic, multilingual country with a millennial history of mass migrations. One needs to be well-versed in its minute details of history and fluent in several of its languages to even start thinking about the meaning of its weapons’ names. Otherwise, it is the lowest degree of the infamous “name game” ...

Yet the name game, for as much as we (sort of) forget, is an irreplaceable component of our spoken communication, right after we abandoned our ape stage of expressing ourselves by gestures. We have to get hold of alternative tricks like the consuetudinary resource to consider the determined name of one thing as being we are all talking about ... even with exceptions taken into account.
I recall illustreous Professor Agostinho da Silva )1906-1994) in that, every time they asked him his ideas on a subject, he started by recalling the etymology of the term, before unequivocally lecturing on such topic.
I wonder to which extent, if any, India's profusion of languages comprehends Western European tongues but, even if just for fun, it is worthy to note, within the Katar-Kutar saga that, in my lingo we say "Cortar" for cutting, from the Latin Curtãre. Can't deny the resemblance .

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by fernando

Can you establish a relation in that, according to what i have been told, the term "Kuthar" was used by Rajendralala Mitra (The Antiquaries of Orissa) in 1896, thus earlier than Egerton adopted the term "Katar".

In 1860, the word “katar” was used by the Russian researcher Florian Gille in the spelling of “kuttar”, describing the arsenal of Russian Imperators in Tsarskoye Selo.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by fernando

Can you establish a relation in that, according to what i have been told, the term "Kuthar" was used by Rajendralala Mitra (The Antiquaries of Orissa) in 1876, thus earlier than Egerton adopted the term "Katar"...

Not so significant for the matter but, i should have written 1876 instead of 1896.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by fernando

Not so significant for the matter but, i should have written 1876 instead of 1896.

Not so significant for the matter. The example I gave refers to 1860