Afghan Pistol

[rickystl]

Hello All. Here is a new addition. I believe this pistol was an Afghan bring-back at some point. But is more interesting than most I have seen. It's plain, robust, and undecorated. And made to be a working gun versus a tourist item.
At first, I thought the markings on the lock plate might be spurious judging from the original photos. But after receiving the pistol, I'm confident it's a genuine lock from a British Light Dragoon pistol from the early 19th Century. The lock and markings match exactly. And works/sparks perfectly. The barrel is .57 caliber, 9" long (possibly shortened during the period) and has British proof marks. But I can't make out the marks. The bore is in very good shape with just a partial coating of light rust. No corrosion. The vent hole in the barrel lines up perfectly with the pan. The barrel band, butt cap, trigger guard, and side plate are all hand made. The lock plate screws are genuine Military with good European cut threads. So I believe the screws are genuine with the lock plate. The stock is also hand made locally but with much better lock inletting than you normally see on these guns. But inside the lock mortise there is a stamp marked HERBERT in perfect English letters. Hmmmm. Curious. Don't have a clue what the connection would be (?) Maybe someone on the European Forum might know ?
A Google search turned up something interesting. This exact pistol was sold at Rock Island Auction, along with two other flintlock pistols on June 25, 2016, Lot # 2190. I bought it from a shooter/hobbiest on another forum.
So my impression is that this is an Afghan made pistol utilizing an original lock and barrel. And a good example of their custom of making guns with what ever combination of surplus parts were available, and hand making the rest.
I just wish I knew what the connection of the HERBERT stamp means ? Anyway picture heavy. Any comments most welcome. Thanks for looking.
Rick

[rickystl]

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[rickystl]

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[corrado26]

I beliefe that this pistol has been made in another country!
In the second half of the 19th century Liège gunmakers tried to buy as much as possible surplus muzzleloader weapons or their single parts in all countries of Europe. These mostly percussion arms have been retransfered to flintlocks and sold into the colonies and lots of still undevellopped countries in the middle east or South - Amerika. A huge deal with lots of money to make!! The French call these weapons "Armes de Traite" .
Your pistol is certainly and without no doubt made at Liège under use of an original British lock and barrel but got a complete new stock. The name HERBERT is surely not the name of an Afghani but of the Belgian who made this stock for your pistol.
corrado26

[kahnjar1]

Hi Rick,
Very nice pistol but I do have some observations. Although the lock itself may possibly be an original, I do not believe that the Crown and GR look to be the quality of English engraving. Also the word DUBLIN?? and whatever is underneath it do not look right to me.
Re the Proof marks....if you can post a clear pic of these I should be able to help. Certainly the crowned V is a view mark used by English Proof Houses. The others are not clear enough to identify.
Stu

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

... I do not believe that the Crown and GR look to be the quality of English engraving. Also the word DUBLIN?? and whatever is underneath it do not look right to me...

Liege fantasy ? .

[Jim McDougall]

While firearms are surely not my typical field of study, and I do not at all discount the observations thus far, I am under the impression this very interesting pistol is a version of the 'late dragoon' type....but legitimately produced. I do not personally think it a Liege example, though this center certainly produced huge volumes of copied and repurposed arms as described.

Neither do I believe this is an Afghan copy of same, though the rather crude engraving does parallel the often remarkably faithful copies of British guns produced in the Khyber regions (Northwest Frontier agency).

In both these cases, it does not seem that the name stamp inside the stock behind the lock would be present, though of course in actual British context it would be placed by assemblers in accord with that practice.

In "British Military Pistols 1603-1888" R.E. Brooker, (1978, p.45) example #40 shows one of these dragoon pistols from DUBLIN CASTLE, and the crown over GR (George III, 1760-1820) . On the example illustrated the markings are remarkably similar, and the surround border on the Dublin Castle is correct. While the lock seems correct, the other furnishings seem varied, such as the side mount serpentine not at all similar.

Brooker notes that during the Revolutionary War these pistols were assembled in Ireland in large volume as the local military forces were increased to 50,000 men. With this ersatz production volume it seems logical that established makers as well as sub contract workers were employed in this production. As such, it seems possible that quality as well as consistency was wanting,and as Brooker suggests, the numerous 'variations' presumed by collectors.

Perhaps this scenario may apply here, though the case for the Belgian or Afghan productions are entirely plausible.

[kahnjar1]

Thank you Jim for deciphering the word under DUBLIN. I could not make it out. I note your comments but wonder at the engraving of the words which do not seem to quite fit the space without squeezing up the letters. Not what I would have expected from English engravers..............
Now to the "Liege connection". I am familiar with Leige made copies, but have never seen one WITHOUT the correct Liege Proofs. Remember that Proof is and was governed by Law, and any LEGAL production would have had to abide by the Proof Laws of the time, and carry the relevant stamps.
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Thank you Jim for deciphering the word under DUBLIN. I could not make it out. I note your comments but wonder at the engraving of the words which do not seem to quite fit the space without squeezing up the letters. Not what I would have expected from English engravers..............
Now to the "Liege connection". I am familiar with Leige made copies, but have never seen one WITHOUT the correct Liege Proofs. Remember that Proof is and was governed by Law, and any LEGAL production would have had to abide by the Proof Laws of the time, and carry the relevant stamps.
Stu

Totally agree Stu, this engraving really is substandard for British work, and also agree that Liege work characteristically does carry proof marks. I am not sure how much this was enforced with Liege arms in the 18th century, but 19th century items seem always to have these marks someplace.

As I mentioned, what puzzles me is if this were Afghan, or for that matter to add impetus to the Liege question, is why would that assemblers name be behind the lock? I will say that the terrible execution of letters/serifs and the crowding in the 'CASTLE' word does suggest something like the Khyber work.

Again, it would seem if there were a sudden push to arm all these local volunteers during the Revolution, and the notable volume of pistols being probably farmed out in Ireland for finishing.....the quality of many of these may well have suffered. In the images in Brooker, the DUBLIN CASTLE were in the same configuration, and the crown and GR were positioned the same, partially obscured by the cock.
I agree, the letters are clumsy, and the line seems to be equally clumsy in execution, but work is only as good as the skill of the engraver. It does seem there are required proofs on the barrel here, which suggests that while not prettily done, it was likely functional enough.

While it seems to me virtually all Afghan guns are focused toward copying East India Company arms, and in my admittedly not comprehensive familiarity with these, what I have seen never included these kinds of apparently ersatz weapons. Brooker claims these 'Irish' examples are considered common, so reproductions or possible fakes seem unlikely.

These are just my observations based on references I have, and look forward to other perspectives as I hope to learn more on these firearms. Im glad we seem to be in accord regarding the Liege question, and the notes on the proof situation there, thank you.

[corrado26]

I have in my now more than 55 years of collecting of firearms of the 16th to the 19th century seen lots of pistols and guns made at Liège that have no ELG mark on their barrels.
Here you see two pistols made in the Dublin Castle out of the huge collection of my friend Bob Brooker. As you can see the signatures are the same. So at least the lock of the pistol in question and maybe the barrel has been made in Dublin. But all the rest, the stock, the barrel ring, first of all the eventually French or Belgium sideplate and the far later industrially produced stock are additions of Liège gunmakers.
corrado26

[Kubur]

Hi,
I vote for the English/Irish connections...
Direct trade and copies from English productions are very well known for the khyber pass. Plus Liege as far I know produced guns for the Meditterranean and African markets, as it was said armes de traite or levantines.

Rick, is your barrel the same thickness?
One photo at the muzzle seems to indicate that the barrel might be local...
Kubur

[fernando]

Stu, Liege proof marks with the configuration/s in we usually discuss them, were only implemented with the Napoleonic occupation. The best of Liege (i.e. XVIII century) was not under such compliance ... am i right ?

Udo, is it my (and others) eyes or the Dublin Castle and the King's Crest in the discussed pistol are way to far from the genuine stamps .

[corrado26]

There are clear differences between the crowns and DUBLIN CASTLE signatures on the original pistol of the BROOKER collection and the pistol in question. See the fotos and decide for yourself. Very remarkable is the missing of the Broad Arrow on the llock of the "remake".
corrado26

[fernando]

Originally Posted by corrado26

There are clear differences between the crowns and DUBLIN CASTLE signatures on the original pistol of the BROOKER collection and the pistol in question...

Bur, that is precisely what i was suggesting; maybe i didn't make it clear ...

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi,

One photo at the muzzle seems to indicate that the barrel might be local...

Why should this barrel be local? As far as I can see there are the British proofmarks on it!
corrado26

[Jim McDougall]

This has been a great insight into this pistol, thank you guys for your patient explanations. I agree on the Liege notes, the ELG proof marks do not seem implemented on pre Napoleonic period weapons as Fernando has suggested, and I would ask as well if that is correct.

While the horrible execution of the crowned GR and DUBLIN CASTLE very much make me think of Khyber as suggested by Stu the more I think of it....that front piece (holding ramrod and absent on British models) is very French/Belgian, and as Corrado notes points to the Liege theory.

Also, Corrado, I cannot find more on the placing of assembler (?) name behind lock as the 'HERBERT' in this example. If this was an Afghan copy, it does not seem they would include such an obscured detail . ,,,by the same token, in Liege it does not seem they would use that either. However if this was the same of the maker in Liege as suggested it would make sense.


As I have noted, this is far outside my field, but it is great to learn more through this discussion. Also, I have few references on British guns, but Mr. Brooker's reference is outstanding with wonderful details and most helpful, so Corrado, please extend my thanks and compliments to him!! Its so much easier to read than others I have looked through.

[corrado26]

I'd really extend your thanks and compliments to Bob Brooker, but as far as I know he is rather ill and do not know wether my email will reach him or not. I have to thank him too very much because I got from him the fotos of a very big part of his collection of pistols of many countries. This is an inestimable treasure and advantage which helps a lot in identifying unknown military pistols.
corrado26

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I agree on the Liege notes, the ELG proof marks do not seem implemented on pre Napoleonic period weapons as Fernando has suggested, and I would ask as well if that is correct. ..

I just didn't want to previously enter in such an categorical tone; but here you go:
Liege (much before Belgium) had armor builders since the XIII-XIV century. Circa 1700 was one of the more important world centers in relation with firearms. Political turbulence in the end of the XVIII century and beginning of the XIX, disorganized the profession of gunsmith, corporate regime was suppressed, markets were closed due a state of war, followed by the establishment of a State monopoly on military materials, determining an important crisis in the industry and trade of arms. That is when Monsieur Bonaparte broke in, reestablishing the Proof house, restoring its force of law; and that is as from when 'modern' Liege marks appeared.
Still i am only the piano player .

[kahnjar1]

Though not directly on the subject of Rick's pistol, here are the Liege Proof Marks discussed above, and details/dates when used.
As an aside, I personally do not believe that the word HERBERT inside the lock mortice has anything to do with Liege, or is in fact a "makers" name, so it remains a mystery.
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Stu, I couldn't find any useful list of these marks as my gun resources are limited. Very much appreciated.
Perhaps you are right on the HERBERT name inside, it probably has nothing to do with Liege......I think we are all agreed this is far too crudely marked for any possible Irish (British) production...….and for that matter, Liege work is far crisper etc.

The lettering on this is so clumsy, and as Corrado has noted, the broad arrow is absent. With the British proof marks, Afghans often used old components so it could be authentic old barrel.


It really is hard to determine composite weapons as not only were they refurbished during working lives, ersatz weapons in time of trouble but even more confounding is that innovative modern dealers and commercial interests do the same thing with parts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The pistol is from Afghanistan. it is a copy >>>This is WHAT THEY TERM AN APPRENTICE PIECE DONE FOR THE TOURIST MARKET WHICH OTHER THAN SOME MILITARY PERSONNEL IS NON EXISTANT... IN KABUL SOUK YOU CAN SEE HUNDREDS OF THESE AND SIMILAR>>>FOR SOME REASON THEY ALWAYS MESS UP THE SPELLING AND BALANCE OF THE WORDS.

[corrado26]

.........and you really belief that this "HERBERT" written in a letter type like Times New Roman has been made in an Afghan backyard shop?
corrado26

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The pistol is from Afghanistan. it is a copy >>>This is WHAT THEY TERM AN APPRENTICE PIECE DONE FOR THE TOURIST MARKET WHICH OTHER THAN SOME MILITARY PERSONNEL IS NON EXISTANT... IN KABUL SOUK YOU CAN SEE HUNDREDS OF THESE AND SIMILAR>>>FOR SOME REASON THEY ALWAYS MESS UP THE SPELLING AND BALANCE OF THE WORDS.

.......so what is your explanation of the genuine English Proof marks on the barrel? I find it hard to believe that anyone making pistols for the "Tourist" market would bother to try and fake these.
As a matter of general interest, and to add to library pics, could you please post some pics of the Kabul souk showing these "hundreds" of pistols. I'm sure that others here would be very interested to see these.
Stu

[fernando]

It is well known that the different parts of firearms were made by different specialized smiths, in their own shops and then sent to assembly.
Before mechanization systems were implemented, manual output had (slight) measurement variations, the various parts of an assembly having to be "fine tuned", i.e., adjusted to accomodate their specific partner. It is expectable that the stock, being the softer part, had to be adjusted to its barrel ... and lock. This system is evidentiated by the cuts we can see in this stock mortise; it would be no surprise to find the same number of cuts underneath its chosen barrel*, if still being the case ... as also inside the lock plate.
I do not see why Mr. Herbert was not the head of the Liegeoise workshop where this stock came from

*As per illustrated example.


.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Though not directly on the subject of Rick's pistol, here are the Liege Proof Marks discussed above, and details/dates when used...

As we may see Stu, the only existing mark before Napoleon was the Tower symbol, which he abolished, only being restored in 1853; notwithstanding that, as i have once read, the guns trade in such earlier period not being strictly controlled, many smiths didn't care to send their pieces for approval;whether because of proof testing costs or other reasons, i don't recall. But i certainly know that many a gun made in Liege in the XVIII century, had no marks at all, as per this fine example i once owned.

.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by corrado26

.........and you really belief that this "HERBERT" written in a letter type like Times New Roman has been made in an Afghan backyard shop?
corrado26

Yes I do believe it because I've seen it. I can show you a video of exactly the detailed expertise from the weapon making centres but for modern weapons … and actually there is a workshop near me making wooden parts for guns...artisans from Afghanistan. I wish I had taken pictures in Kabul but maybe I can get my friends there to take a few of them. They use all the old stamping kit including getting the letters with the little tails on them but quite often spell the name with letters reversed probably by mistake... and especially on Martini Henrys and pistols.

[corrado26]

As I wrote in post #10 I think that the stock and the iron mounts are totally new, to produce such items it needs heavy machinery and I have my severe doubts wether such machinery could have been in use in Afghanistan during the second half of the 19th century.

But if it is true what is written by Ibrahiim al Balooshi, that this is an "APPRENTICE PIECE DONE FOR THE TOURIST MARKET WHICH OTHER THAN SOME MILITARY PERSONNEL IS NON EXISTANT... IN KABUL SOUK YOU CAN SEE HUNDREDS OF THESE AND SIMILAR", than this means that the pistol is a very modern tourist item made during the last decades and has nothing to do with an antique pistol. Then it is probably worthless to have long discussions about it!
corrado26

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Well I don't know if it is worth discussing but I would suggest if you look at the end of the 19thC you will find that the Kabul National weapons making arsenal not only leaked like a sieve but that quite accurate weapons making machinery mysteriously vanished and resurfaced in what we would term back street workshops which to thus day turn out reasonable modern copies. I recall a good discussion on the Machin Khana factory on library some time ago.
khanjar1 poses a question looking for picture evidence in Kabul chicken street main souk of evidence of the hundreds of old style pistols I claim to have seen there a few years ago...which if you know the place you would certainly not want to be seen taking photographs down there. However I found various clues on the web and one in particular from just one small shop in the same souk complex with a lot of weapons in it... there are hundreds of such shops in chicken street just like this ...I also show guns from Darra down the Khyber on the Pakistan side.
The Martini Henry pistol is interesting and a good explanation sits at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTvxFNRLbiw

[Fernando K]

Hello

To more of everything that has been written here, the cap of the stock is of modern weapon, and it is not seen which is the method of fastening Is it a screw? Normally it is held by a spring. In addition, the wood is simply fitted and not dug.

affectionately

[corrado26]

As far as I can see, all pistols in the fotos above are made in a typical British style of the East India Company and like these originals have their mounts made of cast brass which are much easierly to produce than iron mounts that have to be forged.
Quite obviously the pistol in question has except the lock and the barrel nothing British, neither the stock nor the mounts, so - and this is my last reply- why should this piece have been made in Afghanistan?
corrado26