Classifying shashka--a serious discussion of typology

[Jim McDougall]

In looking more at the example of the 15th c. blade shown in this Russian reference compared to the sabre similar to that in the discussion, we can see the atavistic condition that I had mentioned and which prevailed in various cultures' weapons. While in India, certain hilt forms such as the 'Indo-Persian' tulwar style (with disc pommel) continued from an indeterminate period of origin into modern times. The hilt form known as the 'khanda' (like tulwar, another broad term for sword) became altered in the late 16th-17th c. with more 'basket' type hilt after European contact.

In other cultures, the open hilt and guardless 'flyssa' (khedma) seems to have evolved c. early 19th c. and probably derived from early Ottoman yataghans with deep belly blades.
In the Transcaucusus, as previously noted, the Black Sea yataghan (Laz Bichagi as per Ariel's discovery) seems to have evolved around mid 19th c. or earlier from possible iconographic sources.
The so called 'Zanzibar' sword (Demmin 1877; Burton 1884) was discovered to be derived from the Moroccan dirk type weapon known as s'boula (Buttin, 1933). ….and is compellingly similar to the European baselard of earlier times.

These are among some of the examples of atavistic weapons which were apparently introduced much in a commemorative sense as with the Qajar 'revival' type arms in the 17th-18th c. A remarkable number of ethnographic forms are in this genre, with no chronological line of development from early times to modern examples.
The similarly 'sudden' appearance of the open hilted, guardless sabre of the Caucusus now known as the shashka may be among these 'atavistic' forms from 18th century in presuming these circumstances.


I am not aware of examples earlier than 18th c. however it does seem that open hilt swords were well known in Sassanian and other concurrent contexts in the 7th-8th c. (most of these were it seems straight blades). It also seems that the Avars also used similar weapons. Despite lack of evidence available to me (undoubtedly Russian sources will provide these) it seems possible these types of swords prevailed in Central Asian regions and surfaced in recorded observation as the 'shashka'.


This being the thesis of this thread, I would like to know the thoughts of other here toward my thoughts on these atavistic possibilities of the shashka as well as the guardless sabres of Bukhara. I would appeal to those with Russian resources to provide the local term in Bukharen regions for these sabres. There must be a term in local parlance just as the many others that have been thus far provided with other sword forms. I am unaware of any western sources who might have these Bukharen terms, so I am presuming that besides 'shashka' the local term used might have been noted by Russian observers.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This being the thesis of this thread, I would like to know the thoughts of other here toward my thoughts on these atavistic possibilities of the shashka as well as the guardless sabres of Bukhara. I would appeal to those with Russian resources to provide the local term in Bukharen regions for these sabres. There must be a term in local parlance just as the many others that have been thus far provided with other sword forms. I am unaware of any western sources who might have these Bukharen terms, so I am presuming that besides 'shashka' the local term used might have been noted by Russian observers.

Dear Jim! With the ethnic name of the Bukhara shashka everything is very simple. She was called in Central Asia - "sop" or "schop".

[ariel]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Dear Jim! With the ethnic name of the Bukhara shashka everything is very simple. She was called in Central Asia - "sop" or "schop".

Reference, please.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Reference, please.

Семенов А.А. Два слова о ковке среднеазиатского оружия / Живая старина. Спб., 1909

Semenov A.A. Two words about forging Central Asian weapons / Jivaja starina. Spb., 1909

Oddly enough - this is a Russian researcher

The same information in a private conversation was confirmed to me by an employee of one of the largest museums of Turkmenistan - Sopiyev Allanazar.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Mahratt……………it surely must be simple for those living in Bukhara and environs...…..so apparently they are not termed shashkas there I am not aware of anything on Bukharen arms aside from Torben's work, but as you say, that certainly does not mean it is the only work on them. As you have pointed out there are many dialects and languages in the diverse population in Central Asia....is this an exclusively Bukharen term or more broadly, Uzbek?

Thank you for the reference. I assumed it would be by a Russian researcher. I think, as I have noted, researchers by their nature work hard to find and present accurate information. They would not benefit by simply glossing over facts or key information, but they are subject to the laws of humanity..everyone makes misteakes Personally I welcome correction or more pertinant data as learning is what research is all about.


I recall studying some Central Asian swords in the 1941 Danish work by Triikman & Jacobsen, "Origins of the Shashka" and seeing some of the unusual edged weapons shown that were part of associated material. I tried to find one of the references listed which was Hungarian and of 1897. I finally got a limited extract from Lebedynsky and was puzzled by the term 'kardok' applied to some of them. Later, through a Hungarian contributor here, I learned that 'kardok' was again, a Hungarian term for sword, or perhaps more broadly, edged weapon.
The 1941 Danish work took some time to have translated by the Danish Arms & Armour Society.

The Laz Bichagi (Black Sea yataghan) was one of the curious swords listed in the work, and I found one like it in the book "Schwert Degen Sabel" (1962, Seifert). It as listed as a Kurdish/Armenian yataghan. In communication with Mt. Seifert of Germany many years back, he told me that his 'mentor', Mr. Holger Jacobsen, had told him that was what this sword was. Thus for years the appelation Kurdish/Armenian yataghan was tagged to these curious recurved swords. When examples were found with Georgian script, contacts in Georgia explained that indeed some of these were known in their regions.


It is very hard to get accurate information, and as I have explained, often takes many years of material which can be revised, updated or completely wrong. I know that I have always tried to keep my notes and material as current and updated as possible, and I think all researchers, without regard for nationality, do the same.


Thank you for the information you provide, and I am grateful to all who participate here in that same accord.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Mahratt

But just like all the shashkas from the Caucasus are called "shashkas" (regardless of their ethnic names), all the shashkas of Central Asia can and should be called "Bukhara or Central Asia shashkas."

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...…..so apparently they are not termed shashkas there.... :-)

.... which is exactly what this discussion was all about.

So, was this "... tale full of sound and fury" worth it?

There are no tigers in Africa, and no shashkas in Central Asia.
End of story.

[Ian]

This thread has been watched recently for the resurfacing of personality issues and recurring testiness. I think Ariel has correctly opined that we have reached the end of this story. The thread is now closed.


Ian