Elephant swords

[silberschatzimsee]

Originally Posted by fernando

This perhaps a more refutable version !


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i feel sad for that animal

[ariel]

Fernando,
Re. elephant-mounted machine gunner.
AFAIK, every elephant required a mahout, i.e. driver. This person straddled elephant's neck and controlled the animal with an ankus.

Somehow I wouldn't like to work as a mahout in the situation shown in the above photo, with the barrel of a large caliber machine gun right behind the back of my head:-)

Something is fishy here: either this is a:
1. staged picture,
2. stationary and uncontrolled elephant ( which beats the purpose of machine gun's mobility), or
3. the army is in the process of hiring a new and still breathing mahout.

[mahratt]

Here are two interesting photos.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Did they drug the elephants, like they did with the soldiers?


Moser 1912, plate XXIX, nos512-513. Weapon, to mount of the tooths of elephants.
Sorry for the bad quality.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Did they drug the elephants, like they did with the soldiers?...

Maybe not Jens. Not that they wouldn't consider doing so but, drugs often result in an unpredictable mode, like inverting their effects, which with such huge guys it would be rather inconvenient.

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... Moser 1912, plate XXIX, nos512-513. Weapon, to mount of the tooths of elephants.
Sorry for the bad quality.

Still a good picture ... and certainly an enlightening one ... Ariel ?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Like Ariel, I too have the Moser 1955 catalogue, but although the dscriptions are in details sizes, and weights, the authors does not mention from where the weapons are, nor do they write anything about their age - a bit strange for a museum catalogue.

Another strange thing is, when you read the rules under which the collection was given - it should be on exhibit all the time, but so far, to my knowledge, it has been taken down twice for years - and still is.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Like Ariel, I too have the Moser 1955 catalogue, but although the dscriptions are in details sizes, and weights, the authors does not mention from where the weapons are, nor do they write anything about their age - a bit strange for a museum catalogue.

Another strange thing is, when you read the rules under which the collection was given - it should be on exhibit all the time, but so far, to my knowledge, it has been taken down twice for years - and still is.

The minute any object is given to the museum every wish of the donor goes out of the window. Putting objects in storage is the least of the unpleasantries: we see all the time "decommissioned" items sold left and right.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Like Ariel, I too have the Moser 1955 catalogue, but although the dscriptions are in details sizes, and weights, the authors does not mention from where the weapons are, nor do they write anything about their age - a bit strange for a museum catalogue.

To understand it, we need to pay attention to the circumstances of Moser’s acquisition of items.

In Central Asia he was accompanied by Russian troops, the real rulers of the defeated Khanates. Locals were coming to him in droves with items for sale hoping to curry his favors in dealing with the Russians and by definition with local Khans. He did not know local languages and fully relied upon translators, especially his secretary, one Abbas Mirza. I referred to this situation and to its potential shortcomings long ago, when I looked at the origins of the word “karud”.
The 1955 edition is the most detailed one, utilizing Moser’s personal notes. But for example in the section of Persian arms many swords labeled as “Persian” are likely local Central Asian based on their baldrics. No doubt, the blades were bought in Persia, but the rest was done on the spot.

Moser’s sources did not have ( and were not interested in) academic provenancing and accurate dating. But the allure to present your stuff in the best ( most profitable) light to sell it to a poorly informed but rich and influential customer is universal and Moser was in the same position as Prince Saltykoff and countless European tourists in India. In a way, we might be grateful to the writers of his catalogue for omitting some information and sparing us many “ Arabian nights”- type entries.

Perhaps, a reassessment of his collection might be in order by specialists of Elgood’s class.

[ariel]

I'd like to see people nailing chains with some kind of stakes to the ground while dealing with panicky animal running in each and every direction at maximal speed:-)
IMHO, the stakes would be pulled out withing a second, and the " nailers" would be squished.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

I'd like to see people nailing chains with some kind of stakes to the ground while dealing with panicky animal running in each and every direction at maximal speed:-)
IMHO, the stakes would be pulled out withing a second, and the " nailers" would be squished.

You are underestimating the intimacy between these animals and their tamers; soon as feel they are about to panic, they transmit them a body sign: hold (peg me) me or i'll run the heck out of here .

Now seriously, did you know elephants can be taught up to 1,000 oral commands ? Alvaro Velho, when describing how females are 'instructed' to entice males to fall into the traps, mentions the catchers speaking up such commands to them.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by fernando

Further elaborating in Dmitriy's post #41, either the same description of this 40X48 cms. work has found echo all over the Web or there is some consistence in the chains subject as per various sources. Other than the trunk chains, the bells, the armoured protection, all is accordingly. Also the chains in the animal's legs, to peg him to the ground in case he panics and tries to escape, are not an unique approach.
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fernando, I don't think the chains were used much to tie the elephant. Most likely, the chain simply restrict elephant in motion (as it is now being with the horses). That is, did not give the elephant to run fast. Thus, the mahaut (driver elephant) was easier to control the elephant.