Pata sword with European blade

Jens Nordlunde · 29th October 2018, 10:24 PM

Yes Jim, a name could be hidden behind the langet - but we will never find out, as I am not going to take it apart - thempting, but no.

Ok Fernando, I have hakan a pictire of the other side, here it is. It looks as if there is an 'E' just under the langet.

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2018, 12:06 AM

Thank you Jens for the great image on this. In seeing these up close it appears these lines, the cross and orb and whatever those letters are have been drawn or inscribed into a kind of simulated fuller. That last letter looks like a lazy 'Y'.
To me this suggests probably an Indian made blade estimating the markings often seen on European ones. The character of the globe and cross is very artistic compared to the European ones, and it seems usually not used as a terminus like this, but appears on its own. I do know of some cases where it does occur like this but usually it is an anchor in this place.

fernando · 30th October 2018, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... Ok Fernando, I have hakan a pictire of the other side, here it is. It looks as if there is an 'E' just under the langet.

VIVA EL REY
DE PORTUGAL

Jens Nordlunde · 30th October 2018, 04:07 PM

Helleri, I dont know how to do this, does anyone have an idea?
Would X-ray show anything? If it is possible, there will, no doubt, be so much dirt under the langet, so it will be impossible to see anything.

Fernando, maybe you are right. If you are it would be most interesting.
Do you have a picture showing the text from another blade?
How old would you estimate the blade to be?

fernando · 30th October 2018, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... Fernando, maybe you are right. If you are it would be most interesting. Do you have a picture showing the text from another blade?
How old would you estimate the blade to be ?...

As you put it Jens, this is a maybe

.
Here is a 'bad' example of sword for the case, just to show you the clear text.This sword is from the XVIII century, whereas this type of inscription must have started to appear by the second half XVII century (or post-1640), as a patriotic acclaim during the restoration of the independence.
The inscription 'good' format is in the second set of pictures, where in a cup hilted sword/rapier of my little collection you may (hardly) discern the faded inscription divided one half in each side of the blade.

.

Jens Nordlunde · 31st October 2018, 05:02 PM

Fernando,

Thank you for the pictures.
Do you have any pictures showing what the inscription on my blade might have looked like?

Edward F · 31st October 2018, 08:28 PM

im not sure you have enough space ,I used white paper with carbon paper and got impression of number 2 under langet

fernando · 1st November 2018, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Fernando,

Thank you for the pictures.
Do you have any pictures showing what the inscription on my blade might have looked like?

No, idon't !
I even admit that this inscription has been written in different font styles, depending on the smith source and time line. Very often they were not engraved deeply enough to resist time and partly faded way. Here is one in a XVIII century small sword, a so called Quitó.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st November 2018, 04:50 PM

Thank you for the pictures Fernando.
Having looked at the blade once more, I still think it is an Indian copy of a blade from Portugal
It is interesting to notice that a lot of the blades looking European were in fact made in India.

Kubur · 2nd November 2018, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

VIVA EL REY
DE PORTUGAL

Mmmm the problem with Portugueses, everything has to be Portuguese...
And what about the Spanish??

fernando · 2nd November 2018, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Mmmm the problem with Portugueses, everything has to be Portuguese...
And what about the Spanish??

Would:
VIVA EL REY
DE ESPAÑA
... make you happy ?

By the way, the inscription on your blade most probably wasn't made by a Spaniard, but by a German (Solingen ?); i wouldn't know of España being written with a double NN

.

.

Lee · 2nd November 2018, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes Jim, a name could be hidden behind the langet - but we will never find out, as I am not going to take it apart - tempting, but no.

I suppose if one had the contacts and resources, X-rays using modern digital detectors to generate images that can then be manipulated on a computer to apply false contrasts or color could disclose what the blade inscription actually says in an entirely non-destructive fashion. Of course, I have a European sword with an earlier medieval blade with what has been assumed in over a hundred years of literature to be the end of a medieval inscription, but I personally suspect it is only initials from the time of remounting and I do not have the contacts to lay that matter to rest. Similarly a couple of unproven possible Ulfberhts also remain in uncertainty. In any case, back on topic, that is one really nice pata!

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2018, 05:44 PM

Actually the concerns over whether this blade is European...….and by the presumed inscription being Portuguese or Spanish seem entirely moot at this point, as has been well pointed out......the blades of both were typically by this period made in Solingen.

The apparent consensus is that the presumed inscription (artfully applied) is most likely on a blade made in India and that it is probably in imitation of something seen often on earlier European blades. As Portugal had presence in India primarily in western littoral in many locations since early 16th c. (known collectively as Goa)….it seems most probable that a Portuguese inscription might be the model for such inscription.

While the cross and orb is most commonly known on German made blades, we can presume that the model being copied is from a German blade.
While possible of course that a Spanish blade might have been at hand....the Spanish had no presence in India directly ….the Portuguese did ….in Southern India …...the regions where the pata prevailed.

As far as radiological examination of the inscription, one of the only enactors of that process that comes to mind is Dr. Cyril Mazansky (author of " British Basket Hilt Swords") who wrote an article on the x-ray examination of a basket hilt sword off a shipwreck in the Caribbean. Other than that the most usual application has been studying the metallurgical properties of blades in the study of wootz by Dr. Ann Fuerbach et al as far as I recall.

As noted , this requires profound connection to those with the very expensive equipment in use, and would be very expensive. As the dismantling of an historic and valuable sword would compromise its integrity in degree, this might be an alternative but with risk, expense and less than guaranteed results not worth it.

As we know the inscription is spurious, and that the blade is almost certainly not European.....I think it best to accept it for what it is....

a beautiful pata with Indian blade and artistically applied European inscription and motif.

fernando · 2nd November 2018, 07:20 PM

Jens, if you really wish to know what the inscription inside your wonderful pata gauntlet says, let me give you some inspiration.
For reasons different than discerning the contents of an inscription, i had a tremendous need to explore the interior of a little cannon. It came to my mind that years ago, when i worked in a determined construction site, i saw these guys examining the accuracy of the welded areas of a steel tube with an x-ray equipment. So i browsed the Net for a nearby similar service and found the headquarters of one, close from my place. I went there, "bent my knees" to the engineer in charge and the man even found it interesting to help me ... for free ... and with a smile. After all, one happens to have all the luck, some times.
Among countless variations, a couple enhanced images may be seen HERE.

On the other hand, the question prevails that your blade had a previous different purpose, as the inscription was 'obviously' meant to be all visible. One may realize that, having been forged to fit a 'classic' sword, would at a new stage be partially hidden by the gauntlet langets. But of course you know all that, much better than i do

.

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd November 2018, 05:05 PM

Fernando, thank you very much for the tip which is interesting, but after a second thought I think I will leave it as it is.
The texxt could maybe be as you say, but made by an Indian hand.

fernando · 3rd November 2018, 06:19 PM

Fair enough, Jens.

29th October 2018, 10:24 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes Jim, a name could be hidden behind the langet - but we will never find out, as I am not going to take it apart - thempting, but no. Ok Fernando, I have hakan a pictire of the other side, here it is. It looks as if there is an 'E' just under the langet. Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 29th October 2018 at 10:35 PM.

30th October 2018, 04:07 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Helleri, I dont know how to do this, does anyone have an idea? Would X-ray show anything? If it is possible, there will, no doubt, be so much dirt under the langet, so it will be impossible to see anything. Fernando, maybe you are right. If you are it would be most interesting. Do you have a picture showing the text from another blade? How old would you estimate the blade to be? Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 30th October 2018 at 04:24 PM.

31st October 2018, 08:28 PM	#7
Edward F Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 54	im not sure you have enough space ,I used white paper with carbon paper and got impression of number 2 under langet Attached Images

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30th October 2018, 12:06 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Thank you Jens for the great image on this. In seeing these up close it appears these lines, the cross and orb and whatever those letters are have been drawn or inscribed into a kind of simulated fuller. That last letter looks like a lazy 'Y'. To me this suggests probably an Indian made blade estimating the markings often seen on European ones. The character of the globe and cross is very artistic compared to the European ones, and it seems usually not used as a terminus like this, but appears on its own. I do know of some cases where it does occur like this but usually it is an anchor in this place.

31st October 2018, 05:02 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Fernando, Thank you for the pictures. Do you have any pictures showing what the inscription on my blade might have looked like?

1st November 2018, 04:50 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for the pictures Fernando. Having looked at the blade once more, I still think it is an Indian copy of a blade from Portugal It is interesting to notice that a lot of the blades looking European were in fact made in India.

2nd November 2018, 05:44 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Actually the concerns over whether this blade is European...….and by the presumed inscription being Portuguese or Spanish seem entirely moot at this point, as has been well pointed out......the blades of both were typically by this period made in Solingen. The apparent consensus is that the presumed inscription (artfully applied) is most likely on a blade made in India and that it is probably in imitation of something seen often on earlier European blades. As Portugal had presence in India primarily in western littoral in many locations since early 16th c. (known collectively as Goa)….it seems most probable that a Portuguese inscription might be the model for such inscription. While the cross and orb is most commonly known on German made blades, we can presume that the model being copied is from a German blade. While possible of course that a Spanish blade might have been at hand....the Spanish had no presence in India directly ….the Portuguese did ….in Southern India …...the regions where the pata prevailed. As far as radiological examination of the inscription, one of the only enactors of that process that comes to mind is Dr. Cyril Mazansky (author of " British Basket Hilt Swords") who wrote an article on the x-ray examination of a basket hilt sword off a shipwreck in the Caribbean. Other than that the most usual application has been studying the metallurgical properties of blades in the study of wootz by Dr. Ann Fuerbach et al as far as I recall. As noted , this requires profound connection to those with the very expensive equipment in use, and would be very expensive. As the dismantling of an historic and valuable sword would compromise its integrity in degree, this might be an alternative but with risk, expense and less than guaranteed results not worth it. As we know the inscription is spurious, and that the blade is almost certainly not European.....I think it best to accept it for what it is.... a beautiful pata with Indian blade and artistically applied European inscription and motif.

2nd November 2018, 07:20 PM	#14
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jens, if you really wish to know what the inscription inside your wonderful pata gauntlet says, let me give you some inspiration. For reasons different than discerning the contents of an inscription, i had a tremendous need to explore the interior of a little cannon. It came to my mind that years ago, when i worked in a determined construction site, i saw these guys examining the accuracy of the welded areas of a steel tube with an x-ray equipment. So i browsed the Net for a nearby similar service and found the headquarters of one, close from my place. I went there, "bent my knees" to the engineer in charge and the man even found it interesting to help me ... for free ... and with a smile. After all, one happens to have all the luck, some times. Among countless variations, a couple enhanced images may be seen HERE. On the other hand, the question prevails that your blade had a previous different purpose, as the inscription was 'obviously' meant to be all visible. One may realize that, having been forged to fit a 'classic' sword, would at a new stage be partially hidden by the gauntlet langets. But of course you know all that, much better than i do .

3rd November 2018, 05:05 PM	#15
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Fernando, thank you very much for the tip which is interesting, but after a second thought I think I will leave it as it is. The texxt could maybe be as you say, but made by an Indian hand.

3rd November 2018, 06:19 PM	#16
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Fair enough, Jens.