Chinese flat knife

josh stout · 25th September 2018, 02:50 PM

Yes, a nice example of a double knife sadly missing its mate. The blade is in dire need of cleaning. Don't clean it too much, but take off the red rust to stabilize it.

Knives with similar guards and heavy blades are called "Chinese Bowie knives" or "Hong knives" by American collectors. They seem to all date from the late 19th or early 20th c. This looks like it might be on the earlier side of the range.
They got a reputation during San Francisco's "Hong wars".

Yours appears to be both finer and lacking the heavy faceted pommel of most examples.

sakimori · 18th October 2018, 02:52 PM

To me it looks like ones in the study of the house,might have similar use as desk knives(though I have to admit that I don't really know what you could do with a desk knife,except cutting paper).
Certainly there are other possibilities like souvenir/handcrafted just for trade,concealable dagger or anything.I just don't think this one is for any ceremonial use,or at least a rather rarely one.

josh stout · 19th October 2018, 02:35 AM

This was a one of a set of double fighting knives. Not for cutting paper.

Philip · 20th October 2018, 07:58 AM

The piece could also be Vietnamese; in that country knives and sabers were often hilted without an expanded metal pommel as was typical in China. The decoration is also typical of Vietnam as well as south China. I find the handle attachment to be a bit different than the usual Chinese treatment of these, which in my experience tends to feature a one-piece wooden or horn grip, half-round, with the tang entirely enclosed and peened on the butt end (invariably featuring a metal cap or knob) as in the case of a single knife. The result in many old pieces which have seen a lot of use is that the material on the flat side, being thin, has a tendency to crack. The riveted attachment seen here is a much simpler method, and quite durable.

josh stout · 23rd October 2018, 06:53 PM

Interesting thought on the Vietnamese origin. I have not seen examples, so it is a good tidbit.

Village made double knives/swords frequently show solid riveted construction, while I have seen what you are describing, thin horn on the flat side of a double weapon, frequently on the so called "wedding jian". These short shuang jian with "double happiness" motifs and lots of bats are some of the more common double weapons, but are not as solidly made as village double jian. Village weapons almost always use the more solid riveted approach.

Nice to see a well carved example of a knife with the more solid construction form.

Philip · 23rd October 2018, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh stout

Interesting thought on the Vietnamese origin. I have not seen examples, so it is a good tidbit.

Village made double knives/swords frequently show solid riveted construction, while I have seen what you are describing, thin horn on the flat side of a double weapon, frequently on the so called "wedding jian". These short shuang jian with "double happiness" motifs and lots of bats are some of the more common double weapons, but are not as solidly made as village double jian. Village weapons almost always use the more solid riveted approach.

.

Are you talking about the short-bladed things with tortoise shell veneered scabbard and ribbed wood grips? They are quite common on the collector market as you probably have noticed. I haven't heard them referred as wedding jian before. Didn't even know the Chinese had swords at weddings (I associate that with India and Burma) although hanging a small sword (or a facsimile of copper coins strung on an iron rod, or in the case of the Manchus a mini saber) over a baby's crib was traditional in China. Is the wedding sword thing a regional custom? Have you located any pics of these in an actual ceremony? Looking forward to learning more about the custom.

josh stout · 24th October 2018, 04:50 AM

Sorry, it was just something a Chinese collector friend told me. I showed him a set of short shuang jian, just as you are describing with the tortoise shell. I had thought it a particularly interesting set because its provenance was a Chinese family in Sumatra, and I liked it as an example of cultural migration. He mentioned that they were frequently given as wedding presents because the double sword was good luck for the marriage.

Unfortunately the story is apocryphal, but it does seem plausible. As a counter argument, my Chinese Indonesian friends do not think a knife as a gift is good luck. They would be uncomfortable with any sort of sword as a wedding present.

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25th September 2018, 02:50 PM	#1
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Yes, a nice example of a double knife sadly missing its mate. The blade is in dire need of cleaning. Don't clean it too much, but take off the red rust to stabilize it. Knives with similar guards and heavy blades are called "Chinese Bowie knives" or "Hong knives" by American collectors. They seem to all date from the late 19th or early 20th c. This looks like it might be on the earlier side of the range. They got a reputation during San Francisco's "Hong wars". Yours appears to be both finer and lacking the heavy faceted pommel of most examples.

18th October 2018, 02:52 PM	#2
sakimori Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 26	To me it looks like ones in the study of the house,might have similar use as desk knives(though I have to admit that I don't really know what you could do with a desk knife,except cutting paper). Certainly there are other possibilities like souvenir/handcrafted just for trade,concealable dagger or anything.I just don't think this one is for any ceremonial use,or at least a rather rarely one.

19th October 2018, 02:35 AM	#3
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	This was a one of a set of double fighting knives. Not for cutting paper.

20th October 2018, 07:58 AM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	The piece could also be Vietnamese; in that country knives and sabers were often hilted without an expanded metal pommel as was typical in China. The decoration is also typical of Vietnam as well as south China. I find the handle attachment to be a bit different than the usual Chinese treatment of these, which in my experience tends to feature a one-piece wooden or horn grip, half-round, with the tang entirely enclosed and peened on the butt end (invariably featuring a metal cap or knob) as in the case of a single knife. The result in many old pieces which have seen a lot of use is that the material on the flat side, being thin, has a tendency to crack. The riveted attachment seen here is a much simpler method, and quite durable.

23rd October 2018, 06:53 PM	#5
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Interesting thought on the Vietnamese origin. I have not seen examples, so it is a good tidbit. Village made double knives/swords frequently show solid riveted construction, while I have seen what you are describing, thin horn on the flat side of a double weapon, frequently on the so called "wedding jian". These short shuang jian with "double happiness" motifs and lots of bats are some of the more common double weapons, but are not as solidly made as village double jian. Village weapons almost always use the more solid riveted approach. Nice to see a well carved example of a knife with the more solid construction form.

24th October 2018, 04:50 AM	#7
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Sorry, it was just something a Chinese collector friend told me. I showed him a set of short shuang jian, just as you are describing with the tortoise shell. I had thought it a particularly interesting set because its provenance was a Chinese family in Sumatra, and I liked it as an example of cultural migration. He mentioned that they were frequently given as wedding presents because the double sword was good luck for the marriage. Unfortunately the story is apocryphal, but it does seem plausible. As a counter argument, my Chinese Indonesian friends do not think a knife as a gift is good luck. They would be uncomfortable with any sort of sword as a wedding present.