Osborn's G Stamp

Jim McDougall · 14th June 2018, 05:32 PM

I have been watching this thread with great interest, fascinating topic, one which has been largely overlooked by most writers and resources over the years. It seems that Andrew Mowbray was one of the only ones who thought it significant to note these letters which distinctly occur stamped in the ricasso of many British blades of the late 18th into 19th c.

I do have the Mowbray book, and I don't mind at all going through it, it is full of great detail, revealing the depth of knowledge Mr. Mowbray had on these swords. One thing I always appreciated about Andy, was how entirely open and selfless he was in always sharing that, and willingness to help in answering queries from anyone who asked.

In the book, he does note the 'G' as being used to designate Gill, and interestingly also notes an 'O' or an 'Ob' marked on the ricasso in the same fashion, which is suggested to represent Osborn. It is mentioned as well that the GG stamp may have been added by Gunby when he partnered with Osborn in 1808, and wanted to distinguish from Gill's single G.

As Bryce has well pointed out, this seems disputed by the many examples of Osborn blades which seem to carry the G stamp. I also am inclined to think against Gill using a simple letter to signify 'his' blades. He was indeed quite a self promoter, and his blades well illustrate that character. In these times of powerful competition, it seems well placed.

In 18th century it does seem that Sweden (perhaps even others) often used a 'P' letter at the ricasso and the suggestion was that it represented 'proved'. This sounds of course logical.

With the curious majuscule letters at the ricasso on these blades, and the well placed observations and queries Bryce has posed, the question begged is 'what do these signify'?

The obvious interpretation is that these are first letter abbreviations for the names of makers, however the evidence does not carry that through in some cases.
There is one instance of a number in the same ricasso location and likely other such instances. Is it possible these letters have other signified values which may have been coded in accord with production administration?

Bryce · 18th June 2018, 03:36 AM

G'day Jim,
Thanks for joining the discussion. Although in this case G isn't the initial of the maker, there are examples where the maker stamped their name here. I have seen several Runkel marked swords which are also stamped D.NEEF. According to Richard Dellar, the Neef family were prominent Solingen sword makers and also Runkel's in-laws, so it is likely they supplied many of his blades.

I have also come across a couple of British 1803 pattern swords, marked on the scabbard to Prosser, with an S stamp on the ricasso. The engraving on these blades is in the style normally found on Solingen blades.

Sometimes you come across Prosser marked swords with a P stamp on the ricasso. I don't know if this means P for Prosser or P for Proved.

Cheers,
Bryce

Jim McDougall · 18th June 2018, 06:34 AM

Hi Bryce,
It remains a mystery, the actual purpose or meanings of these capital letters at the forte in these blades.
Bezdek ("Swords & Sword Makers of England and Scotland", 2003) notes on p.32 that a crown over letter and number indicates"
E=Enfield
S= Solingen
W=Wilkinson
B= Birmingham
It is unclear exactly when these letters might have been used in this manner, obviously Wilkinson was not making swords until 1850s; Enfield was not officially producing until early 1800s.
Also, these were crowned stamps, not just capital letters.

On the 'IP' 'OVER' the etched Prosser on the blade. This is truly an anomaly. As far as I have known, officers swords were not required to be inspected or 'proved' as they were private purchase by officers.

Bezdek (op.cit. p.141) notes"
Prosser (John) registered his 'IP' mark at Goldsmith Hall in April, 1796.
So clearly this ligature is his mark, and as he was indeed an official artisan for the Crown, the mark is well representative......but why deface the etched makers motif ?

Hotspur · 29th June 2018, 05:59 PM

Shiloh has/had a sabre not marked to Osborn but with an American motif etch and stamped G.

I've no other comment aside from including it here.

Cheers
GC

Bryce · 18th July 2018, 02:12 AM

G'day Guys,

Thank you GC for posting the G stamped sword above.

Here is another G stamped Osborn and Gunby marked blade. This one also has the sans serif G. I am yet to come across an Osborn and Gunby marked sword which has the G stamp with "serifs".

Cheers,

Bryce

Bryce · 8th January 2019, 10:18 PM

G'day Guys,

Came across this Osborn and Gunby marked sword at the Royal Armouries (Object IX.354). There are good photos showing the ricasso on both sides of the blade. There are no G stamps on the blade, so this supports the theory that Osborn and Gunby stopped using the G stamp at some stage. Unfortunately this sword has no features we can use to narrow down the date of manufacture.

Cheers,
Bryce

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2019, 10:32 PM

Hi Bryce,
Thank you for keeping us up to date on this topic! This is an interesting example of the M1796 officers sword, which I think was used for some time even beyond the 1822 patterns as it was entirely a dress sword. It seems I read somewhere that British officers hated these for use on campaign.

The Osborn & Gunby inscription and motif and absence of the forte letter stamp we have been discussing is most interesting. It seems that Mowbray had suggested as partners (1808) the use of a GG was used instead of the O or Ob formerly used.

Without really having a better idea of what these letters stamped at the forte actually meant it is hard to really say if a blade without them can be placed in a certain time frame. At one point it seems it was suggested that these letters may have been indicating a blade or sword for export to America. If that was the case, perhaps this was simply one that was for British use?

18th June 2018, 03:36 AM	#2
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	G'day Jim, Thanks for joining the discussion. Although in this case G isn't the initial of the maker, there are examples where the maker stamped their name here. I have seen several Runkel marked swords which are also stamped D.NEEF. According to Richard Dellar, the Neef family were prominent Solingen sword makers and also Runkel's in-laws, so it is likely they supplied many of his blades. I have also come across a couple of British 1803 pattern swords, marked on the scabbard to Prosser, with an S stamp on the ricasso. The engraving on these blades is in the style normally found on Solingen blades. Sometimes you come across Prosser marked swords with a P stamp on the ricasso. I don't know if this means P for Prosser or P for Proved. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

29th June 2018, 05:59 PM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	Shiloh has/had a sabre not marked to Osborn but with an American motif etch and stamped G. I've no other comment aside from including it here. Cheers GC Attached Images

18th July 2018, 02:12 AM	#5
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	G'day Guys, Thank you GC for posting the G stamped sword above. Here is another G stamped Osborn and Gunby marked blade. This one also has the sans serif G. I am yet to come across an Osborn and Gunby marked sword which has the G stamp with "serifs". Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

8th January 2019, 10:18 PM	#6
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	G'day Guys, Came across this Osborn and Gunby marked sword at the Royal Armouries (Object IX.354). There are good photos showing the ricasso on both sides of the blade. There are no G stamps on the blade, so this supports the theory that Osborn and Gunby stopped using the G stamp at some stage. Unfortunately this sword has no features we can use to narrow down the date of manufacture. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

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14th June 2018, 05:32 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	I have been watching this thread with great interest, fascinating topic, one which has been largely overlooked by most writers and resources over the years. It seems that Andrew Mowbray was one of the only ones who thought it significant to note these letters which distinctly occur stamped in the ricasso of many British blades of the late 18th into 19th c. I do have the Mowbray book, and I don't mind at all going through it, it is full of great detail, revealing the depth of knowledge Mr. Mowbray had on these swords. One thing I always appreciated about Andy, was how entirely open and selfless he was in always sharing that, and willingness to help in answering queries from anyone who asked. In the book, he does note the 'G' as being used to designate Gill, and interestingly also notes an 'O' or an 'Ob' marked on the ricasso in the same fashion, which is suggested to represent Osborn. It is mentioned as well that the GG stamp may have been added by Gunby when he partnered with Osborn in 1808, and wanted to distinguish from Gill's single G. As Bryce has well pointed out, this seems disputed by the many examples of Osborn blades which seem to carry the G stamp. I also am inclined to think against Gill using a simple letter to signify 'his' blades. He was indeed quite a self promoter, and his blades well illustrate that character. In these times of powerful competition, it seems well placed. In 18th century it does seem that Sweden (perhaps even others) often used a 'P' letter at the ricasso and the suggestion was that it represented 'proved'. This sounds of course logical. With the curious majuscule letters at the ricasso on these blades, and the well placed observations and queries Bryce has posed, the question begged is 'what do these signify'? The obvious interpretation is that these are first letter abbreviations for the names of makers, however the evidence does not carry that through in some cases. There is one instance of a number in the same ricasso location and likely other such instances. Is it possible these letters have other signified values which may have been coded in accord with production administration?

18th June 2018, 06:34 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Hi Bryce, It remains a mystery, the actual purpose or meanings of these capital letters at the forte in these blades. Bezdek ("Swords & Sword Makers of England and Scotland", 2003) notes on p.32 that a crown over letter and number indicates" E=Enfield S= Solingen W=Wilkinson B= Birmingham It is unclear exactly when these letters might have been used in this manner, obviously Wilkinson was not making swords until 1850s; Enfield was not officially producing until early 1800s. Also, these were crowned stamps, not just capital letters. On the 'IP' 'OVER' the etched Prosser on the blade. This is truly an anomaly. As far as I have known, officers swords were not required to be inspected or 'proved' as they were private purchase by officers. Bezdek (op.cit. p.141) notes" Prosser (John) registered his 'IP' mark at Goldsmith Hall in April, 1796. So clearly this ligature is his mark, and as he was indeed an official artisan for the Crown, the mark is well representative......but why deface the etched makers motif ?

9th January 2019, 10:32 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Hi Bryce, Thank you for keeping us up to date on this topic! This is an interesting example of the M1796 officers sword, which I think was used for some time even beyond the 1822 patterns as it was entirely a dress sword. It seems I read somewhere that British officers hated these for use on campaign. The Osborn & Gunby inscription and motif and absence of the forte letter stamp we have been discussing is most interesting. It seems that Mowbray had suggested as partners (1808) the use of a GG was used instead of the O or Ob formerly used. Without really having a better idea of what these letters stamped at the forte actually meant it is hard to really say if a blade without them can be placed in a certain time frame. At one point it seems it was suggested that these letters may have been indicating a blade or sword for export to America. If that was the case, perhaps this was simply one that was for British use?