kris identification needed

A. G. Maisey · 27th December 2017, 09:00 AM

Thanks Paul, yes, that's the Jensen one I had in mind.

The blade is Segaluh, but in my mind I had this complete keris as Madura East Jawa, but with the Segaluh blade? Maybe not. Been a long while since I've seen the pic. Tell me, is that the full pic? No pendok? I thought I remembered a Madura pendok. Maybe this thing is a montage. One thing is certain, not Solo.

The length would seem to rule out anything associated with Bali on your keris.

Paul B. · 27th December 2017, 04:03 PM

The pic from the disk added as a printscreen. The pendok (pimped?) has a strong Madurese vibe.
Again a poor pic.
BTW> My disk got stuck also, I bought a new one and saved the content as PDF files and I can search trhu it much quicker and it won't fail anymore!

Paul B. · 27th December 2017, 04:15 PM

Here are some more pics.

Remarks:
Why rule out Bali? The size of another typical Bali kris fits within the paramters?
Besides the elevation seen on the gandar (not perfectly straight) is a feature that speaks for it so is the somewhat similar mata ideng.
A blade with a max of 38 cm would fit in.
The slot opening shows a wide opening. Sizes: 8,5 x 1,3 cm.
It still puzzles me...

Last pic shows a Banten kris with double lip too. Not sure if that is the right path we should search.

A. G. Maisey · 27th December 2017, 09:20 PM

Kai:- thanks for your clarification, I understand what you mean now.

Yes, the ladrangs do have what you are calling a "double lip", but I have not seen anything similar to Paul's gayam. I'm afraid I am unable to transfer characteristics from one wrongko form to another wrongko form, to do so would be to disallow what I have been taught.

However, what you are doing is probably quite valid, after all, Cirebon is not a part of the "Land of Jawa", and once you move from Javanese core values the way of appraisal that I have been taught is not really applicable.

Paul:- yes, that was the picture in my mind.

I only mentioned Bali because I was thinking in terms of far east or north east Jawa, where there is a lot of Bali influence, yes, there are shorter Bali keris, but I've never seen anything like this associated with Bali. If your wrongko had been longer I might have continued to entertain the idea of Bali, but now I understand what you and Kai regard as the double lip, I'm inclined to accept the idea of Sunda influence.

Yes, I understand that there are ways around the Jensen problem, I did have it on my external hard drive for my old computer, but the HD packed up years ago. I seldom find a need for Jensen, my interests do not coincide with the way in which Jensen treats the keris, he looks at it from a perspective that ceased to interest me much a long time ago. But it used to be useful from time to time to help me understand what some other people were talking about. I'll probably borrow a copy from a friend and put it into my computer.

kai · 29th December 2017, 01:01 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

Yes, the ladrangs do have what you are calling a "double lip", but I have not seen anything similar to Paul's gayam.

Yes, Paul's certainly is very unusual. (And he came up with that description - not claiming any authorship here...

)

Quote:

I'm afraid I am unable to transfer characteristics from one wrongko form to another wrongko form, to do so would be to disallow what I have been taught.

I'm aware of their different functions but did not realize that they represent completely different cultural environments or encompass unrelated sets of motifs/social meanings? Could you possibly explain the traditional Jawa POV, maybe in a separate thread? Thanks heaps in advance!

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 29th December 2017, 04:42 AM

Its a pretty simple concept Kai, and certainly not worth a separate thread, in fact, I'd put money on it that anybody who has got just the absolute minimal knowledge of the Javanese keris and Javanese thought processes would be able to guess the way it works.

Think about this:- unless a keris blade is in complete compliance with the relevant pakem it is "di luar pakem" = "out of the parameters" (broadly). Nothing to stop someone from making a keris that combines features in a previously unknown style, but just don't think that you can call it a keris in kraton circles.

So, if you're following the style of a particular kraton, you must follow it exactly, you cannot mix and match the various characteristics of various things and create something new --- not unless ordered to by your lord. An ordinary person simply does not have the authority to vary an established form.

However, when you move away from kraton influence, which means putting distance between yourself and the nearest place where kraton influence may apply, once you get away from the kraton style there is a lot more freedom of individual expression.

Most people attached to a kraton hierarchy, even today, will have more than one set of dress for one or more of their krisses, the type and style of dress should be in accordance with the occasion upon which it would be worn.

The above applies to Central Jawa, Surakarta/Jogjakarta. I cannot speak for other places.

So, in respect of the ?north coast? wrongko under discussion, if I look at Paul's example, in my head I try to match it with other wrongkos of broadly the same style, I do not go looking for vaguely similar features in a totally different style of wrongko : one is gayam, one is ladrang, so I put ladrang completely out of my head.

27th December 2017, 04:03 PM	#2
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	The pic from the disk added as a printscreen. The pendok (pimped?) has a strong Madurese vibe. Again a poor pic. BTW> My disk got stuck also, I bought a new one and saved the content as PDF files and I can search trhu it much quicker and it won't fail anymore! Attached Images

27th December 2017, 04:15 PM	#3
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Here are some more pics. Remarks: Why rule out Bali? The size of another typical Bali kris fits within the paramters? Besides the elevation seen on the gandar (not perfectly straight) is a feature that speaks for it so is the somewhat similar mata ideng. A blade with a max of 38 cm would fit in. The slot opening shows a wide opening. Sizes: 8,5 x 1,3 cm. It still puzzles me... Last pic shows a Banten kris with double lip too. Not sure if that is the right path we should search. Attached Images

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

27th December 2017, 09:00 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Thanks Paul, yes, that's the Jensen one I had in mind. The blade is Segaluh, but in my mind I had this complete keris as Madura East Jawa, but with the Segaluh blade? Maybe not. Been a long while since I've seen the pic. Tell me, is that the full pic? No pendok? I thought I remembered a Madura pendok. Maybe this thing is a montage. One thing is certain, not Solo. The length would seem to rule out anything associated with Bali on your keris.

27th December 2017, 09:20 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Kai:- thanks for your clarification, I understand what you mean now. Yes, the ladrangs do have what you are calling a "double lip", but I have not seen anything similar to Paul's gayam. I'm afraid I am unable to transfer characteristics from one wrongko form to another wrongko form, to do so would be to disallow what I have been taught. However, what you are doing is probably quite valid, after all, Cirebon is not a part of the "Land of Jawa", and once you move from Javanese core values the way of appraisal that I have been taught is not really applicable. Paul:- yes, that was the picture in my mind. I only mentioned Bali because I was thinking in terms of far east or north east Jawa, where there is a lot of Bali influence, yes, there are shorter Bali keris, but I've never seen anything like this associated with Bali. If your wrongko had been longer I might have continued to entertain the idea of Bali, but now I understand what you and Kai regard as the double lip, I'm inclined to accept the idea of Sunda influence. Yes, I understand that there are ways around the Jensen problem, I did have it on my external hard drive for my old computer, but the HD packed up years ago. I seldom find a need for Jensen, my interests do not coincide with the way in which Jensen treats the keris, he looks at it from a perspective that ceased to interest me much a long time ago. But it used to be useful from time to time to help me understand what some other people were talking about. I'll probably borrow a copy from a friend and put it into my computer.

29th December 2017, 04:42 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Its a pretty simple concept Kai, and certainly not worth a separate thread, in fact, I'd put money on it that anybody who has got just the absolute minimal knowledge of the Javanese keris and Javanese thought processes would be able to guess the way it works. Think about this:- unless a keris blade is in complete compliance with the relevant pakem it is "di luar pakem" = "out of the parameters" (broadly). Nothing to stop someone from making a keris that combines features in a previously unknown style, but just don't think that you can call it a keris in kraton circles. So, if you're following the style of a particular kraton, you must follow it exactly, you cannot mix and match the various characteristics of various things and create something new --- not unless ordered to by your lord. An ordinary person simply does not have the authority to vary an established form. However, when you move away from kraton influence, which means putting distance between yourself and the nearest place where kraton influence may apply, once you get away from the kraton style there is a lot more freedom of individual expression. Most people attached to a kraton hierarchy, even today, will have more than one set of dress for one or more of their krisses, the type and style of dress should be in accordance with the occasion upon which it would be worn. The above applies to Central Jawa, Surakarta/Jogjakarta. I cannot speak for other places. So, in respect of the ?north coast? wrongko under discussion, if I look at Paul's example, in my head I try to match it with other wrongkos of broadly the same style, I do not go looking for vaguely similar features in a totally different style of wrongko : one is gayam, one is ladrang, so I put ladrang completely out of my head.