Moroccan Saif with a British (?) Hanger Blade

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Teodor,
You may find this thread of interest. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=1742
My Regards,
Norman.

[ariel]

The side langets bent to form a circle perpendicular to the blade are characteristic of Omani “Zanzibar” saifs.
The greatest majority of Moroccan saifs ( “nimchas”) sport trade european blades. Thus, I do not find it unusual to see a British one. I think we even saw here a Moroccan Koummya ( a very peculiar blade!) with British marks. My guess only Flyssas were always local.

[TVV]

Jim and Norman,

Thank you very much - I read the threads on the Shotley Bridge swordsmiths, and the thread about Norman's M1742 hanger, as well as Jim's notes in the post on the running wolf mark in the Blade Markings Associated with European Makers thread. Thank you for confirming that this blade almost certainly started as a British hanger in the second half of the 18th century, before making it to the Maghreb to receive its current mounts.

Ariel,

I too am wondering about the reason for the unusual quillons bent perpendicularly to the blade. The hilt is most certainly Maghrebi: the form of the grip and the decoration of the white metal band under the guard are Moroccan in style. Could this have some chronological (earlier vs. later style) or geographical significance, or could it be a vestige from hilts with D-ring guards like those from Zanzibar? While less common, we have seen this type of guard before, like for example on the much higher quality sword posted by Tatyana in the link below:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4782

Sincerely,
Teodor

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by TVV

Jim and Norman,
or could it be a vestige from hilts with D-ring guards like those from Zanzibar? While less common, we have seen this type of guard before, like for example on the much higher quality sword posted by Tatyana in the link below:
r

Hi Teodor,

Yes you are right.
Here is another one from the 18th c. with the SH fox.

Best,
Kubur

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Kubur!!! Thank you, here is the more well known fox from Birmingham with SH (Samuel Harvey) and thank you for the entry in the panel of markings.
* excellent note on the fluer de lis used in England as well! Is this from Gilkerson?

The fox without initials as I noted is in my opinion for John Dawes of Birmingham, but he did not initial his.

Trying to look back into discussions and research over the years on these sa'if, and the term 'nimcha/nimsha' which is not actually Arabic, but Persian loosely for half , or small sword. In many cases these are mounted with full length blades, so effectively a misnomer, but the 'nimcha' term is primarily a western term from collectors...locally they are sa'if.

There seems to have been a great deal of debate over classification of these hilts as to regional attribution, but none of it conclusive. For the most part the Buttin (1933) references to these swords is 'Arab', and the 'Zanzibari' assessment as far as a type of hilt is unsubstantiated.
There have been examples which have decoration corroborated with other material culture decoration, but these pertain to incidental case where a distinctly Zanzibar decorated example was at hand.

The loop guard is but one of it seems three hilt configurations, all are essentially Maghrebi.
One has the three drooping quillons; one has the loop guard over the blade at forte; the other has vertical 'pitones' extending from two drooping quillon terminals.
There do not seem to be pragmatic solutions as far as purposes for these other than design affectations. The ideas for blade catching etc are always at hand, but not well defined.

[TVV]

Kubur,

Very nice, thank you as well for adding another example, this one with the Samuel Harvey marking. It seems plausible that a number of British hangers, probably after becoming surplus, made it to the Maghreb and where subsequently rehilted according to local tastes.

Jim,

Thank you for your notes. To make matters complicated, I believe there is a distinct version of these hilts that was used in Zanzibar and the Omani Eastern African possessions. In fact, on p. 237 of his book, Hales shows a photograph of the Vizier of the Comoros (not formally part of the Omani Empire, but under heavy Omani influence via Zanzibar) where the Vizier's guards have swords with hilts like the one I am attaching from Oriental Arms sold archive.

I believe that in other threads it has been shown that the version with two of the quillons forming a D-ring is also Omani/Zanzibari. If you look at hilt form alone, there is also similarity to saifs from Southern Yemen, many of which may have been produced all the way in India and exported to Yemen.

There is a connection, somehow, between these hilts from opposite costs of Africa, but it might be better served in another thread.

Regards,
Teodor

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Reference;
A.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha


Great thread... very much in support of the various threads on Moroccan Saif and on the Shotley and other centres in England. ...However~ It is my view that a lot of this is in fact still being penciled into the margin for example; the SH inside the bushy tail fox is Samuel Harvey either Snr or Jnr of Birmingham. The Shotley Bridge wolf mark is either a copy of the Solingen/ Passau mark on imported Solingen blades or was struck by the German sword makers at Shotley Bridge. There is some conjecture as to Hounslow using the bushy tail fox and other sword makers but it is still unfurling...

The Moroccan saif was used by English military Bands of London e.g.Tobias Blose is painted
carrying one (Ref A) thus these English blades were seen on Moroccan hilts.

If these blades were being brought into North Africa I see no reason why they could not have been used as many blades came flooding in on the trade blade route.

The Piton guard on TVVs first at #1 is Moroccan. The hilt above with a formal cross guard and turned down pommel had a chain guard still showing the pin on the pommel where it was attached. ...and three pronged top to the pommel more in fashion with the Red Sea Saudia variant ..Reference A. Refers.

One key indicator is the peened spigot on top of the pommel which on Zanzibari weapons looks like a turtle. Usually on other types it is a simple round stud; occasionally decorated.