?1900s Indian Army saber?

Ian · 29th October 2017, 06:51 PM

Welcome to the forum, donaghy77.

More pictures of this sword would be helpful I think.

Ian

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2017, 07:09 PM

This was a wonderful thread and good to see it up again,
the M1853 was indeed used as a select pattern for certain units. The Wilkinson Latham book lists these in its survey of chosen types for the units. It is a shame that Mr. Wilkinson Latham has dropped out of the forum scene as SFI has gone defunct.
There is no doubt there are others of this India made pattern out there and he would know of them.

donaghy77 · 31st October 2017, 08:33 PM

Ian

I have just worked out how to add pictures, poor show when a lot of my job involves IT, I hope you like them, I have spoken to Jim who has been brilliant with bringing his encyclopaedic knowledge to bear

RobT · 2nd November 2017, 02:51 AM

Hi All,

I believe the marks on the blade next to the hilt are the Gujarati number 51.

Sincerely,
RobT

donaghy77 · 2nd November 2017, 01:04 PM

Thanks Rob

I think thats right, it would refer to the rack number

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2017, 10:35 PM

Excellent Rob!!!
That makes perfect sense!! and thank you for spotting this,
I have found that pretty much there were two units using the M1853 pattern hilts per R. Wilkinson-Latham "Pictorial History of Swords and Bayonets" (1973), ...these were one listed as 'Fanes Horse' which is shown as 17th lancers.
This unit was situated in Bengal and actually the unit known as Fanes Horse was the 19th Lancers. These were both Bengal units and I have always thought they used the1821 type hilts.

On the other one, 31st Duke of Connaughts Own Lancers, which was commanded by the Duke of Connaught, who was also governor of the Bombay Presidency.
This huge administrative region of the British Raj, extended from Bombay all the way to Sind which of course included Gujarat mid way in the time period we are considering, c. 1880-1905,
The Gujarati numerals would have likely been rack number.

RobT · 3rd November 2017, 12:37 AM

Jim,
Happy to help out. The same sort of thing goes on with a lot of the Royal Nepalese khukri (see Guns of the Gurkhas by John Walters). The battalion abbreviation plus the battalion unit and weapon numbers are frequently inscribed on the spine. Save for the 6, 7, and 10, the Devangari numbers used on the khukri are pretty much the same as the Gujarati numbers. As an interesting aside, it would appear that the so called Arabic numbers were actually a Hindu invention and that invention also included the concept (and digit) of zero. The Moslems picked-up the numbers from the Hindus and in turn gave them to the Christians.

Sincerely,
RobT

RobT · 3rd November 2017, 01:14 AM

I meant to say that the Gujarati and Devangari numbers 6, 7, and 9 are dissimilar. Sorry about that.

Sincerely,
RobT

29th October 2017, 06:51 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	Welcome to the forum, donaghy77. More pictures of this sword would be helpful I think. Ian Last edited by Ian; 29th October 2017 at 08:36 PM.

31st October 2017, 08:33 PM	#3
donaghy77 Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 3	1900s Indian Army Sabre Ian I have just worked out how to add pictures, poor show when a lot of my job involves IT, I hope you like them, I have spoken to Jim who has been brilliant with bringing his encyclopaedic knowledge to bear Attached Images

2nd November 2017, 02:51 AM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 548	51 on Blade Hi All, I believe the marks on the blade next to the hilt are the Gujarati number 51. Sincerely, RobT

2nd November 2017, 01:04 PM	#5
donaghy77 Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 3	51 Thanks Rob I think thats right, it would refer to the rack number

3rd November 2017, 12:37 AM	#7
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 548	Glad I Could Help Jim, Happy to help out. The same sort of thing goes on with a lot of the Royal Nepalese khukri (see Guns of the Gurkhas by John Walters). The battalion abbreviation plus the battalion unit and weapon numbers are frequently inscribed on the spine. Save for the 6, 7, and 10, the Devangari numbers used on the khukri are pretty much the same as the Gujarati numbers. As an interesting aside, it would appear that the so called Arabic numbers were actually a Hindu invention and that invention also included the concept (and digit) of zero. The Moslems picked-up the numbers from the Hindus and in turn gave them to the Christians. Sincerely, RobT

29th October 2017, 07:09 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This was a wonderful thread and good to see it up again, the M1853 was indeed used as a select pattern for certain units. The Wilkinson Latham book lists these in its survey of chosen types for the units. It is a shame that Mr. Wilkinson Latham has dropped out of the forum scene as SFI has gone defunct. There is no doubt there are others of this India made pattern out there and he would know of them.

2nd November 2017, 10:35 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Excellent Rob!!! That makes perfect sense!! and thank you for spotting this, I have found that pretty much there were two units using the M1853 pattern hilts per R. Wilkinson-Latham "Pictorial History of Swords and Bayonets" (1973), ...these were one listed as 'Fanes Horse' which is shown as 17th lancers. This unit was situated in Bengal and actually the unit known as Fanes Horse was the 19th Lancers. These were both Bengal units and I have always thought they used the1821 type hilts. On the other one, 31st Duke of Connaughts Own Lancers, which was commanded by the Duke of Connaught, who was also governor of the Bombay Presidency. This huge administrative region of the British Raj, extended from Bombay all the way to Sind which of course included Gujarat mid way in the time period we are considering, c. 1880-1905, The Gujarati numerals would have likely been rack number.

3rd November 2017, 01:14 AM	#8
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 548	Whoops I meant to say that the Gujarati and Devangari numbers 6, 7, and 9 are dissimilar. Sorry about that. Sincerely, RobT

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