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#61 | |||||||||||
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![]() The issue here is not such passionate angle of political influences, even if ancestral ones but, instead, questioning the plausibility of authors (and collectors and others) statements on determined swords provenances and their influence in shape throughout ages and peoples. Quote:
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I just wonder how the author of such statement isn't also aware of that. But if he was, we wouldn't be here analizing such implausibilty ... although not one of the more screaming. Quote:
By the away, you are surely aware that the name Falcata was ony attributed in the XIX century. What it is not known, according to experts, is how Lusitanians called this sword... but this doesn't mean that they didn't used it. On the contrary, if Celtiberians made them (or copied them), we may realize that they passed on to their following breeds. It is not because early examples were recently found that original models didn't have their inheritance and evolution throughout time. Quote:
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... And i happen to have been offered a catalogue of a collection auctioned in 2003 with an outstanding set of these swords in exceptional conditions. Quote:
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Nevertheless this Gentleman holds in fact one of the largest collections of early weapons and tons of documentation mainly directed to the Indian route and discoveries period. Quote:
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If you browse the search button of the forum under AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES it could be that you find a few pictures i posted of Eduardo Nobre's collection with contextual detail references. ... Plus the details i have already passed you on my half dozen examples. Did i also pass you their pictures ? . Last edited by fernando; 31st July 2017 at 05:24 PM. |
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#62 | |
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- Last edited by fernando; 1st August 2017 at 09:18 AM. Reason: spell |
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#63 | ||||||||||
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That is correct. It is what I have been saying about this evolution. Quote:
Agree. M. Fulgosio invented the name in 1872. Of course, also Lusitanians used the falcata. Though I am more adept to the explanation about their origin given by Fernando Quesada Sanz in his book on the subject. I personally don't believe in the Greek origin. Quote:
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I only have the book from Quesada and some articles. You should share!! ![]() ![]() Quote:
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Thank you for the references. I have Hombres, Espadas y Tomates (only text, no images), but not the other book. As you know, I was absent from the forum and many interesting threads are unknown to me. I will search inmediately. But of what pictures are you talking about? Do you mean the photos from the book above and from Antonio's Page? Un abrazo Last edited by Gonzalo G; 1st August 2017 at 11:08 AM. |
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#64 |
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Details from photos of paintings of Nuno Gonçalves (court Portuguese painter, 15th Century). The swords seem more akin to the Spanish ones. I wonder if the black sword, more differentiated, was exclusive of the colonial enterprise. Or if the differences were because one was a dressing sword and the other a fighting sword, or just because one evolved in time into the other. The details come from the portrait of Saint Paul and the Saint Vincent Panels:
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#65 |
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Another detail:
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#66 |
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![]() ![]() Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 1st August 2017 at 07:46 AM. Reason: dfgn cftghm tu8 |
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#67 | |
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My question to you is why would a battlefield weapon, then, have the style of quilon seen in later Kastane? ...Swords which were clearly weak bladed and which had no fighting practicality but were in fact badge of office tokens... or Icons awash with Buddhist designs.. Surely a religious Icon like the hilt, the peacock tail rain-guard, the other zoomorphic creatures and the very important religious architecture of the misnomered "quilons" or thunderbolts..."the Vajra" ...be placed on a battlesword when they were so revered in Buddhism from the very beginning... The Great Buddha himself carried the Vajra to Tibet; It would not be placed on a blade...on a battlesword... Thus I point to the Kastane Quilons in the bling badge of office version as misplaced and misnamed by European experts ...but very real as religious architecture. To be precise I would have to show an earlier Tibettan sword with Vajra Quilon architecture illustrating my point. For that I refer to the Boston Museum of Fine Art for the 14th Century Khadya Tibetto-Chinese sword with Vajra styled Quilons acting as they are designed ... as thunderbolts ...and in the pure sense as religious Icons. Please see http://sword-site.com/thread/1018/tibetan-sword-khadya See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...680#post218680 where I have updated details in that thread and for comments. and below with a reminder of the Vajra cutting device added; Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 1st August 2017 at 09:06 AM. |
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#68 |
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But now, this more military-style men carry the more classic black swords (same panel):
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#69 | |
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Salaams TVV SEE #53. Indeed it is not Moroccan, but Zanzibari yes. As noted in #53. Regarding hilts please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...680#post218680 and the post I have just completed at # 67 above. In reference to the hilt, guard, quilons and rainguard ... In fact the entire hilt and all of the Deities ...This is a purely Buddhist inspired item. but you could argue some likeness in the shape of the knuckle guard although others could counter it was simply parallel development ...I could live with similarities in the guard and of course the blades may be European but the rest of the sword is Sri Lankan with heavy notes of Buddhism in the hilt. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 1st August 2017 at 08:58 AM. |
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#70 | |
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The sword basic form is Benin African tribal see below and at http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ul...c;f=8;t=008949 probably with a Storta hilt... I can see how this may have been rehilted by the Portuguese dominant in the region but I think it premature to link the hilt with the Sri Lankan examples on Kastanes... On your reference this is a European Lion. Benin Sword below. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 1st August 2017 at 12:57 PM. |
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#71 |
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I think we are disgressing too much from the subject, which is the possible relation among the jineta-nimcha-kattara, which bring us to the evolution of their hilts. The Portuguese and Spanish swords from the 15th Century and their parallelism, of course, are a related matter to the jineta.
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#72 | |
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The complexity is fascinating in this regard but the thread title may throw some... There is no need to consider Kattarra as it is not in the mix... however, that is only a suggestion lest you think I am leading the thread ! It will go where it goes... and I see no reason to change my own track... but you can do what you like...I learn a lot from the added focus upon Spanish and Portuguese links and it can be seen I have placed serious input from the Italian direction and naturally the Indian Ocean which is only half an hour away! I believe more in free association of ideas rather than getting hung up on strict references because more astute contributors than you or I will drive a bus through that lot ![]() |
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#73 | ||||||||
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http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=eduardo+nobre. Quote:
.HEREHERE HEREHERE Last edited by fernando; 1st August 2017 at 01:55 PM. |
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#74 | |
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#75 | |
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#76 | |
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But an European Lion ... i never thought of that ![]() |
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#77 | |
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#78 | |
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#79 | |||||
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En Torno al Orígen y Procedencia de la Falcata Ibérica Máchaira, Kopis, Falcata Quote:
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Discoveries Swords And thank you very much for your link. A succulent text. Regards Last edited by Gonzalo G; 2nd August 2017 at 03:49 AM. |
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#80 | |
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#81 | |
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#82 | |
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Now, since I wouldn't like to make frivolous divagations (too busy with my readings), I will not insist on this subject and just ask you to compare the swords by Nuno Gonçalves from those represented in the "Santo Domingo de Silos" by Bartolomé Bermejo, 15th Century. Left panel, upper image. It is in the opposite side of the Iberic Peninsula, the Kingdom of Aragón: Santo Domingo de Silos Regards Last edited by Gonzalo G; 2nd August 2017 at 02:25 AM. |
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#83 | |||
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I confess that, reading this document i posted and the fraction i uploaded with a ceramic work in which Greeks are rehearsing an atack with swords visibly the type of the Kopides, my non scholar interest was satisfied. Needless to say that the Helenic origin theory is also embraced by other sources; i don't know if inspired by Quesada Sanz. In any case and quoting again the work i linked, we may read that Sanz mentions also as origin Souhern Albania and the Etruscan lands, here spotted a century later. Whether this type of weapon originated in Northern Greece and travelled to those other places, after all no so distant from eachother, is a riddle i will leave for academics endeavour. Quote:
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I was referring to another link where he shows a row of Portuguese weapons. Also in his web page he has/had an article on his visit to Rainer Dahehnartd's house (much before i did), where he photographed one or two other swords; a different context. |
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#84 | |
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![]() What is there to compare ... what is obvious ? Portuguese, Spanish, Iberian, even Venetian. On the other hand, it is amazing how the artist could envisage Saint Paul with a navigator sword ![]() I remember having been here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=panels BTW ... perhaps is time to pack bags and leave this thread follow its original path ![]() . Last edited by fernando; 2nd August 2017 at 02:52 PM. |
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#85 | |
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In these Iberian ...and in fact Mediterranean forms there is clear and undisputed free association of design although it is difficult to nail down a specific date where one form flows into the next. I wondered if the Jewish expulsion question from Spain can be viewed in explaining the redistribution of sword makers around the region may be part of the equation. In 1492 when the great expulsion took place see http://www.sephardicstudies.org/1492account.html where it states that most were artisans and for example the King of Turkey welcomed those that made it...as he was aware of their expertise... at making arms. Thus it was that these peoples were spread around and must have gone where their specialty was best received ... It is suggested that weapon spread of design and style must have featured highly in their technique thus diffusion of design probably took place widely. To me two countries (but not only two) in particular are responsible for the world wide spread of sword variants... Spain and Portugal ... The Papal act Treaty_of_Tordesillas 1494 and closely related treaties to 1530 and onwards which split the Atlantic between the two must be instrumental in farming out the potential for spreading form from each source. (But not only that factor) In fact this didn't altogether prevent each country from doing a little trespassing... and ships going the long way round and via Acapulco soon found the short way home via the Indian Ocean. In effect hardly any country took a blind bit of notice of this treaty and it could be argued that it simply heated up the race for territorial expansion all around. In itself this comes as another factor in sword design copy and transfer..Interesting. The thread is a good one although I repeat that insofar-as the header...Jineta/nimcha/kattara is concerned Jinetta and Nimcha are related and relatable but the third is not; Kattara has nothing to do with either. The Papal act dividing up the world can be seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas and below an idea of the sea chart supporting it. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 3rd August 2017 at 02:01 PM. |
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#86 |
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And if that were not enough please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Union
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#87 | |
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I will start by uploading pictures of the falcatas from that catalogue i have previously mentioned (and as already requested by Gonzalo) and later will add to this post some considerations introduced in such catalogue, about the Weapons of the Iberian Iron Age, written by authors other than those quoted by Gonzalo, but which approach, even admitedly outdated, seems to be worth to consider. In a next post, i will upload further pictures of the same catalogue, in order to help me raise some empirical crazy questions about the turned quillon saga. . Last edited by fernando; 3rd August 2017 at 07:25 PM. |
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#88 |
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As i see it written out there, the falcata Iberica may not go without its counterpart, the La Tene type sword, an inheritance of the Halstadt period, with its 'antena' grip evolution. It appears that either style found its location in different parts of the Peninsula, apparently due to their distinct migration directions.
When discussing which of these two types was used by the famous Viriato, a Lusitanian tribal warrior that dared to confrontate and managed to significantly delay the Roman invasion, conclusion would be that he used mainly the La Tene (a model with a straight blade in opposition to sickle shaped falcata), a style that pleased the Romans, to the extent that they adopted it for his weaponry equipment, calling it Gladius Hispaniensis (they called Hispania to the whole Peninsula). We know that all this is of common knowledge, even boring for a connoisseur like Gonzalo; however my reach atempt is another, one that goes beyond common sense, that still i dare put things in a different angle; not academic or scholar, only empirical, certainly closer to insanity. When i collected coins i acquired a couple ancient Indian coins, dating back to many centuries before Christ. This took me to browse on the origin of money currency; well i found two locations running in the same championship, the author saying that maybe one didn't copy or picked the idea from the other. They happened to simultaneousy felt such necessity, and so they went ahead minting coins, one not knowing about the other. I don't recall the exact details, but the moral of the story is what matters here. Sword guards, quillons, curved quillons, extremely curved quillons; what precisely were they for ... blade catchers, finger defences, adornments, religious symbols, scabbard adjustment implements ? And why have they been necessarily copied from the neighborhood or remote domains ? I know this is a subject that gives reason of existance to scholars, but for those who fancy simpler explanations, perspectives arise that switch another kind of complicometer, that of an ignarus. Look at these Iberian antena swords from the Hallstatl period, VI to V century BC. Aren't those quillons on their guards ... even down turned, although of reduced dimensions ? And, for a couple seconds, compare them with those of the Omani Kattara. I know i must be out of my mind, but ... how in hell those Iberians (whoever) cared to apply such things in their sword guards ? . . |
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#89 | |
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And please don't credit me. I am not a connoisseur. I am just trying to learn and confront my ideas with those of others, to test them. On the falcatas or on the subject of influences, maybe it should be better if you open a new thread. Regards Last edited by Gonzalo G; 4th August 2017 at 08:01 AM. |
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#90 |
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Though it is known today the incredibly far reaching connections since prehistoric times the peoples from around the world, except perhaps Australia and America, always had. The influences existed, and also had a far reaching effect. The crossing paths were the most benefited from this interchange, specially the Mediterranean Culture.
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