Home Defense?

Andrew · 8th March 2006, 04:13 PM

Ian commented in another thread that a "Black Sea Yatagan" would not be the first weapon he would go for to defend himself.

In the spirit of that line of thinking, I believe it's time for a silly thread about which EDGED weapon you would prefer for self-defense against, say, a home invader.

No firearms allowed.

Personally, I'd be reaching for a Barung.

Rick · 8th March 2006, 04:44 PM

I'd agree with that Andrew ; but for the purely visual intimidation factor the Toa might be a good bet ; plus you've got reach .

The Khyber might also be a decent tool .

not2sharp · 8th March 2006, 05:24 PM

I would go with a khukuri. It is easy enough to use and it doesn't matter how you hit your opponent since they will likely be divided in two.

n2s

Tim Simmons · 8th March 2006, 05:40 PM

If the encounter was on my narrow stair case then a good Massai spear would be quite handy but I would also slip my Barong over my shoulder just in case they got a little to near. Heavy with some reach but small enough for confined space. I live in a small Victorian terrace house. Tim

Rich · 8th March 2006, 05:43 PM

Japanese wakizashi. Small enough to wield in tight places, but will
still sever limbs, heads, etc :-) (I know the thread said no guns, but
really a 357 would be much more effective and is what I have ready).

Rich S

Spunjer · 8th March 2006, 05:49 PM

this is on my night stand...

kinda prefer the binangon due to its balance.

Valjhun · 8th March 2006, 06:06 PM

If we stick to edged weapons, then I agree with Rich in using a wakizashi, but also a nice strong dha would do the job even more effectively and requires less skill.

For thoose who want to commit suicide I reccomend the Laz Bichagi. Anyway if you do not have anything else around (try to) use it. Pulling it out from the scabbard is per se a sort of adventure, then if you're lucky enogh and your index finger remains attached to your hand, you can stab your opponent into the eyes with the forked pommel rather than slashing him, 'cos you'd probably miss him.

But keep in mind that if the opponent is armed with a victorinox and is less than 10 meters away, you are doomed.

Titus Pullo · 8th March 2006, 09:11 PM

Probably a small side arm, like the U.S. army bowie type knife. Although, I think it is better if you avoid confrontation for legal reasons (you can end up in jail) and your safety!

Yannis · 8th March 2006, 10:45 PM

Well, it is very ypothetical question. If I have enough time I will go for my favorite shashqua. The problem is the scabbard. The invader will die with style.

If I have to be fast, I have a good kilij without scabbard in the right place. If the blow dont kill him the rust on the blade will finish him slowly.

But it is also question of the mood. How about an invader kebab with my flyssa?

I wouldnt try sort blades, he is maybe more skilful than me in martial arts.

Lew · 8th March 2006, 11:07 PM

I would use a nice heavy knobkerrie. Face it guys using a bladed weapon and removing large parts of the intruders anatomy in your home can become very messy. Just imagine the cleanup job from the blood spurting out all over your freshly painted walls or trying to get the stains out of your rugs

Lew

MABAGANI · 8th March 2006, 11:24 PM

Lol, Lew, I was thinking the same thing and maybe using a mace in the dark with a sneak attack, no need to wake anyone up while I'm at it? But if we're going to get messy, it'll be a barung and then test cuts with every blade, intruders be warned...ha ha

ariel · 8th March 2006, 11:55 PM

I am extremely disappointed at Andrew: Barung?????

What happened? The Dhafia abandons its roots?
Personally, I have a modern Taiwanese "wakizashi" that is very, very ugly; my in-laws brought it as a present in an attempt to mollify me

I'll just show it to the intruder, say a magic word "Mother-in-Law!!!" and see him scurrying away in horror.
Simple.

themorningstar · 9th March 2006, 12:36 AM

the barung under my pillow....

nechesh · 9th March 2006, 12:57 AM

Well, i don't own a barung yet, but would agree that in a tight space it would be a weapon of choice. But my wavy Moro kris is extremely intimidating and wicked sharp....

Montino Bourbon · 9th March 2006, 01:58 AM

I've always liked japanese swords, and I keep my favorite in my bedroom; a relatively long 15th century daito, that my friend (and first kendo teacher) calls "a good working sword". That said, I also like the trusty ol' cudgel, which sits in a convenient place.(No, I won't tell you where!)
My Italian friend, admiring my 50 inch macassar ebony staff, said:
"Quello non fa mai cilecca"
(That thing never misfires!)

and it's short enough for what my aforementioned kendo teacher calls "Indoor work"!

Mainly, I hope never to have to use them.

Rick · 9th March 2006, 02:24 AM

Actually when I think of it a blade would only be a backup in case there was anything left after our 80# Rhodesian Ridgeback bitch got through with said intruder .

Emanuel · 9th March 2006, 04:27 AM

Ah...animal viciousness.
I imagine any sort of heavy bat - those metal softball/baseball ones - would do considerable damage on a poorly armed/prepared intruder. After breaking arms, legs, what have you, blades would be a coup-de-grace.
Wouldn't the knobkerrie be messy as well on account of the localized weight? A man's skull would burst under the onslaught.

Andrew · 9th March 2006, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I am extremely disappointed at Andrew: Barung?????

What happened? The Dhafia abandons its roots?
Personally, I have a modern Taiwanese "wakizashi" that is very, very ugly; my in-laws brought it as a present in an attempt to mollify me

I'll just show it to the intruder, say a magic word "Mother-in-Law!!!" and see him scurrying away in horror.
Simple.

lol.

Dha are beautiful and effective but, in tight confines, I'm going to grab a sure thing. The Barung is, in my opinion, the best sword for causing the most damage in unskilled hands.

In skilled hands...

zelbone · 9th March 2006, 05:39 AM

Hmmm....I'd reach for my barung as well, but it's up on the wall in my office

!

Next to my bed I have my trusty Ilongo binangon and an Aklanon talibon...either one I can trust my life with.

But the first line of defense would be the pinute I keep in the umbrella stand next to the front door as well as a pair of kamagong and bahi arnis bastons that also reside in the umbrellas stand....and I do have a couple of umbrellas there as well

.

wolviex · 9th March 2006, 07:47 AM

Quote:

it doesn't matter how you hit your opponent since they will likely be divided in two.

Quote:

but will still sever limbs, heads, etc :-)

Quote:

If the blow dont kill him the rust on the blade will finish him slowly

Quote:

After breaking arms, legs, what have you, blades would be a coup-de-grace.(...) man's skull would burst under the onslaught.

HA! I always suspected I'm amongst bloody maniacs in here.

Yannis · 9th March 2006, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

HA! I always suspected I'm amongst bloody maniacs in here.

The worst is they are barung lovers, too

BluErf · 9th March 2006, 03:33 PM

I have kerises in every corner of my room literally, but they're safely packed in cabinets and cupboards, and in their individual pouches, so grabbing them is going to be difficult at short notice. And further more, I love them so much I'd rather use my fists.

However, I do have a 'surprise' hanging right next to my bed. I just need to reach out 20cm and I'll have it in my hand. Its a 15th Century hand-and-a-half repro with a hardened tip meant to defeat plate armour.

A Tinker blade.

BluErf · 9th March 2006, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

HA! I always suspected I'm amongst bloody maniacs in here.

I'd probably just scare the guy away and that's it. Non-violent ending is always the best.

Mark · 9th March 2006, 03:46 PM

I have a couple dha that I would consider using. They are long & sharp enough to stab as well as slash, so I don't see working in a confined space as too much of a problem.

But, I probably would pick up my Paul Chen niu wei dao, because it is sharp, heavy and scary-looking. Plus, I wouldn't care if it got bent or broken (not likely), or rusty, or happened to wack some innocent wall or piece of furniture.

The beauty of using a sword versus a knife is the intimidation factor. Imagine being a cat burgler expecting to run into somone with maybe a bat or gulf club, and instead finding some wild-eyed nut waving a big sword.

No need to shed blood, but you might have to clean up a puddle of something else on the floor.

Keep a piece of writing paper handy, and casually slice it in two for his/her benefit, just to add to the fun.

Andrew · 9th March 2006, 04:38 PM

Great responses!

I agree that non-violent endings are always preferable (I try to follow the middle path

).

However, if someone has invaded my home and is threatening my family, I'm not going for the intimidation effect, I'm going for the dismemberment/disembowel effect.

Battara · 9th March 2006, 08:00 PM

BARUNG without question. The first week in our new apartment (12 years ago) I was faced with protecting my wife and home with a 19c barung in one hand and the other keeping my wife back. If the intruder broke through the door (a strong possibility at the time) then what comes first through the door way becomes "surgically removed".

Fortunately, in the end, this did not happen and the police took care of everything when they arrived.

I have had close encounters with the need to use my sticks a couple of times (same apartments - now we no longer live there

).

VANDOO · 9th March 2006, 08:21 PM

I AM VERY FORGIVING AND AVOID TROUBLE, BUT IF SOMEONE TRYS TO COME IN MY HOME WITHOUT PERMISSION THAT ALL CHANGES. I HAVE SOMETHING WITHIN REACH MOST ANYWHERE IN THE HOUSE, EXCEPT THE BATHROOMS I WONDER WHAT THE PROPER WEAPON WOULD BE FOR THERE

PERHAPS A BLIVVEY 10 POUNDS OF SH-T IN A 5 POUND BAG

I WOULD PREFER TO USE SOMETHING NEWER AND FUNCTIONAL INSTEAD OF A ANTIQUE AND HAVE SEVERAL ITEMS AVAILABLE. I KEEP THIS LITTLE KNIFE NEAR THE BED IT WILL WORK WELL FOR CUTTING UP OR DOWN AS IT IS EDGED 3/4 OF THE WAY ON TOP IT ALSO THRUSTS WELL AND HAS GREAT BALANCE AND IS VERY STURDY.

ANOTHER METHOD IS TAG AND RELEASE HERE IS A PICTURE OF TWO TAGING DEVICES. YOU TAG THEM ABOVE THE WAIST WITH THIS AND LET THEM RUN OFF THEN HAVE THE POLICE WATCH FOR THEM AT THE EMERGENCY ROOMS.

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2006, 03:14 AM

Geez this thread is bizarre!! you guys are scarin' me!!!!

feel like its an edged weapons episode of C.S.I!!!

I'm pretty sure any poor unfortunate who paid a clandestine appearance to any of you guys would likely die of fright ..a guy standing there in his BVD's wielding some horrific bladed weapon in the shadows...yikes!

Really though, as I once noted during discussions concerning the prospective outlawing of edged weapons recently going on in Australia......any collector of edged weapons would never use one of his cherished pieces in an act of violence. Who would want one of thier weapons to end up in a police evidence lockup? and thereafter who knows what would become of it.

I think in the darkness the distinct and resounding mechanical cocking sound of a 12 guage is compellingly discouraging to the uninvited!!! A little Texas perspective

Sorry Andrew, just reinforcing my case against using historical edged weapons accordingly

All the best,
Jim

Chris Evans · 10th March 2006, 06:55 AM

I would use a 19th century ratcheting antique navaja. After reading the Manual del Baratero I am now fully equipped to dispense well deserved mayhem on anyone foolish enough to invade my castle.

As I theatrically and slowly open the old folder, the sound of the "carraca" will hopefully mesmerize the evildoer, who I am told will passively stand by until I send him on his last journey with the rusty Santolio

. Of course, if due to uncontrollable nervous agitation brought on by the ratcheting, he heads my way, I have plan B: Throw the navaja away and run like hell out the backdoor, yelling wildly that someone is trying to rob my antique collection

Cheers
Chris

kronckew · 10th March 2006, 08:24 AM

As a newbie here jumping in the deep end, i'd grab these as i swing out of bed, the doggies giving me a few more moments to warm up....

or mebbe

or if i had a few minutes, i'd grab the ol' barn door & axe & sling the spatha over my hauberk & i'd be ready for anyone who could get past my two 65lb., 45mph landsharks. you can get in, but don't plan on getting out.

they're not scary, really

__________________________________________________ _____________
CAVE CANEM ET SEMPER PARATUS
Dic, hospes Spartae nos te hic vidisse iacentes,
Dum sanctis patriae legibus obsequimur

If they don't want me to eat animals - why do they make them out of MEAT?

8th March 2006, 04:13 PM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Home Defense? Ian commented in another thread that a "Black Sea Yatagan" would not be the first weapon he would go for to defend himself. In the spirit of that line of thinking, I believe it's time for a silly thread about which EDGED weapon you would prefer for self-defense against, say, a home invader. No firearms allowed. Personally, I'd be reaching for a Barung.

8th March 2006, 04:44 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	A Good First Impression Is Important I'd agree with that Andrew ; but for the purely visual intimidation factor the Toa might be a good bet ; plus you've got reach . The Khyber might also be a decent tool .

8th March 2006, 05:49 PM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	this is on my night stand... kinda prefer the binangon due to its balance. Attached Images

8th March 2006, 11:24 PM	#11
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Lol, Lew, I was thinking the same thing and maybe using a mace in the dark with a sneak attack, no need to wake anyone up while I'm at it? But if we're going to get messy, it'll be a barung and then test cuts with every blade, intruders be warned...ha ha Last edited by MABAGANI; 8th March 2006 at 11:45 PM.

9th March 2006, 02:24 AM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Let Loose the Hound !! Actually when I think of it a blade would only be a backup in case there was anything left after our 80# Rhodesian Ridgeback bitch got through with said intruder .

8th March 2006, 05:24 PM	#3
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	I would go with a khukuri. It is easy enough to use and it doesn't matter how you hit your opponent since they will likely be divided in two. n2s

8th March 2006, 05:40 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	If the encounter was on my narrow stair case then a good Massai spear would be quite handy but I would also slip my Barong over my shoulder just in case they got a little to near. Heavy with some reach but small enough for confined space. I live in a small Victorian terrace house. Tim

8th March 2006, 05:43 PM	#5
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Japanese wakizashi. Small enough to wield in tight places, but will still sever limbs, heads, etc :-) (I know the thread said no guns, but really a 357 would be much more effective and is what I have ready). Rich S

8th March 2006, 06:06 PM	#7
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	If we stick to edged weapons, then I agree with Rich in using a wakizashi, but also a nice strong dha would do the job even more effectively and requires less skill. For thoose who want to commit suicide I reccomend the Laz Bichagi. Anyway if you do not have anything else around (try to) use it. Pulling it out from the scabbard is per se a sort of adventure, then if you're lucky enogh and your index finger remains attached to your hand, you can stab your opponent into the eyes with the forked pommel rather than slashing him, 'cos you'd probably miss him. But keep in mind that if the opponent is armed with a victorinox and is less than 10 meters away, you are doomed.

8th March 2006, 09:11 PM	#8
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	Probably a small side arm, like the U.S. army bowie type knife. Although, I think it is better if you avoid confrontation for legal reasons (you can end up in jail) and your safety!

8th March 2006, 10:45 PM	#9
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Well, it is very ypothetical question. If I have enough time I will go for my favorite shashqua. The problem is the scabbard. The invader will die with style. If I have to be fast, I have a good kilij without scabbard in the right place. If the blow dont kill him the rust on the blade will finish him slowly. But it is also question of the mood. How about an invader kebab with my flyssa? I wouldnt try sort blades, he is maybe more skilful than me in martial arts.

8th March 2006, 11:07 PM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I would use a nice heavy knobkerrie. Face it guys using a bladed weapon and removing large parts of the intruders anatomy in your home can become very messy. Just imagine the cleanup job from the blood spurting out all over your freshly painted walls or trying to get the stains out of your rugs Lew

8th March 2006, 11:55 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am extremely disappointed at Andrew: Barung????? What happened? The Dhafia abandons its roots? Personally, I have a modern Taiwanese "wakizashi" that is very, very ugly; my in-laws brought it as a present in an attempt to mollify me I'll just show it to the intruder, say a magic word "Mother-in-Law!!!" and see him scurrying away in horror. Simple.

9th March 2006, 12:36 AM	#13
themorningstar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 55	the barung under my pillow....

9th March 2006, 12:57 AM	#14
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, i don't own a barung yet, but would agree that in a tight space it would be a weapon of choice. But my wavy Moro kris is extremely intimidating and wicked sharp....

9th March 2006, 01:58 AM	#15
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	I've always liked japanese swords, and I keep my favorite in my bedroom; a relatively long 15th century daito, that my friend (and first kendo teacher) calls "a good working sword". That said, I also like the trusty ol' cudgel, which sits in a convenient place.(No, I won't tell you where!) My Italian friend, admiring my 50 inch macassar ebony staff, said: "Quello non fa mai cilecca" (That thing never misfires!) and it's short enough for what my aforementioned kendo teacher calls "Indoor work"! Mainly, I hope never to have to use them.

9th March 2006, 04:27 AM	#17
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Ah...animal viciousness. I imagine any sort of heavy bat - those metal softball/baseball ones - would do considerable damage on a poorly armed/prepared intruder. After breaking arms, legs, what have you, blades would be a coup-de-grace. Wouldn't the knobkerrie be messy as well on account of the localized weight? A man's skull would burst under the onslaught.

9th March 2006, 05:39 AM	#19
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Hmmm....I'd reach for my barung as well, but it's up on the wall in my office ! Next to my bed I have my trusty Ilongo binangon and an Aklanon talibon...either one I can trust my life with. But the first line of defense would be the pinute I keep in the umbrella stand next to the front door as well as a pair of kamagong and bahi arnis bastons that also reside in the umbrellas stand....and I do have a couple of umbrellas there as well .

9th March 2006, 03:33 PM	#22
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I have kerises in every corner of my room literally, but they're safely packed in cabinets and cupboards, and in their individual pouches, so grabbing them is going to be difficult at short notice. And further more, I love them so much I'd rather use my fists. However, I do have a 'surprise' hanging right next to my bed. I just need to reach out 20cm and I'll have it in my hand. Its a 15th Century hand-and-a-half repro with a hardened tip meant to defeat plate armour. A Tinker blade.

9th March 2006, 03:46 PM	#24
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I have a couple dha that I would consider using. They are long & sharp enough to stab as well as slash, so I don't see working in a confined space as too much of a problem. But, I probably would pick up my Paul Chen niu wei dao, because it is sharp, heavy and scary-looking. Plus, I wouldn't care if it got bent or broken (not likely), or rusty, or happened to wack some innocent wall or piece of furniture. The beauty of using a sword versus a knife is the intimidation factor. Imagine being a cat burgler expecting to run into somone with maybe a bat or gulf club, and instead finding some wild-eyed nut waving a big sword. No need to shed blood, but you might have to clean up a puddle of something else on the floor. Keep a piece of writing paper handy, and casually slice it in two for his/her benefit, just to add to the fun.

9th March 2006, 04:38 PM	#25
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Great responses! I agree that non-violent endings are always preferable (I try to follow the middle path ). However, if someone has invaded my home and is threatening my family, I'm not going for the intimidation effect, I'm going for the dismemberment/disembowel effect.

9th March 2006, 08:00 PM	#26
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	BARUNG without question. The first week in our new apartment (12 years ago) I was faced with protecting my wife and home with a 19c barung in one hand and the other keeping my wife back. If the intruder broke through the door (a strong possibility at the time) then what comes first through the door way becomes "surgically removed". Fortunately, in the end, this did not happen and the police took care of everything when they arrived. I have had close encounters with the need to use my sticks a couple of times (same apartments - now we no longer live there ).

9th March 2006, 08:21 PM	#27
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM VERY FORGIVING AND AVOID TROUBLE, BUT IF SOMEONE TRYS TO COME IN MY HOME WITHOUT PERMISSION THAT ALL CHANGES. I HAVE SOMETHING WITHIN REACH MOST ANYWHERE IN THE HOUSE, EXCEPT THE BATHROOMS I WONDER WHAT THE PROPER WEAPON WOULD BE FOR THERE PERHAPS A BLIVVEY 10 POUNDS OF SH-T IN A 5 POUND BAG I WOULD PREFER TO USE SOMETHING NEWER AND FUNCTIONAL INSTEAD OF A ANTIQUE AND HAVE SEVERAL ITEMS AVAILABLE. I KEEP THIS LITTLE KNIFE NEAR THE BED IT WILL WORK WELL FOR CUTTING UP OR DOWN AS IT IS EDGED 3/4 OF THE WAY ON TOP IT ALSO THRUSTS WELL AND HAS GREAT BALANCE AND IS VERY STURDY. ANOTHER METHOD IS TAG AND RELEASE HERE IS A PICTURE OF TWO TAGING DEVICES. YOU TAG THEM ABOVE THE WAIST WITH THIS AND LET THEM RUN OFF THEN HAVE THE POLICE WATCH FOR THEM AT THE EMERGENCY ROOMS. Attached Images

10th March 2006, 03:14 AM	#28
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Geez this thread is bizarre!! you guys are scarin' me!!!! feel like its an edged weapons episode of C.S.I!!! I'm pretty sure any poor unfortunate who paid a clandestine appearance to any of you guys would likely die of fright ..a guy standing there in his BVD's wielding some horrific bladed weapon in the shadows...yikes! Really though, as I once noted during discussions concerning the prospective outlawing of edged weapons recently going on in Australia......any collector of edged weapons would never use one of his cherished pieces in an act of violence. Who would want one of thier weapons to end up in a police evidence lockup? and thereafter who knows what would become of it. I think in the darkness the distinct and resounding mechanical cocking sound of a 12 guage is compellingly discouraging to the uninvited!!! A little Texas perspective Sorry Andrew, just reinforcing my case against using historical edged weapons accordingly All the best, Jim

10th March 2006, 06:55 AM	#29
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 676	I would use a 19th century ratcheting antique navaja. After reading the Manual del Baratero I am now fully equipped to dispense well deserved mayhem on anyone foolish enough to invade my castle. As I theatrically and slowly open the old folder, the sound of the "carraca" will hopefully mesmerize the evildoer, who I am told will passively stand by until I send him on his last journey with the rusty Santolio . Of course, if due to uncontrollable nervous agitation brought on by the ratcheting, he heads my way, I have plan B: Throw the navaja away and run like hell out the backdoor, yelling wildly that someone is trying to rob my antique collection Cheers Chris

10th March 2006, 08:24 AM	#30
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	As a newbie here jumping in the deep end, i'd grab these as i swing out of bed, the doggies giving me a few more moments to warm up.... or mebbe or if i had a few minutes, i'd grab the ol' barn door & axe & sling the spatha over my hauberk & i'd be ready for anyone who could get past my two 65lb., 45mph landsharks. you can get in, but don't plan on getting out. they're not scary, really __________________________________________________ _____________ CAVE CANEM ET SEMPER PARATUS Dic, hospes Spartae nos te hic vidisse iacentes, Dum sanctis patriae legibus obsequimur If they don't want me to eat animals - why do they make them out of MEAT? Last edited by kronckew; 10th March 2006 at 06:15 PM.

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