Spear ID?

VVV · 5th March 2006, 06:12 PM

Hi all,

I found this spear last Spring but haven't been able to identify it.
Honestly at first I hoped it would be Malay or Sumatran but after some research I don't think so anymore.
Hopefully some of the forum members recognise it?
Is it Siam, Vietnam or...?

As you can see the lower end of the spearpoint, just before the tang, is square.

Michael

VANDOO · 5th March 2006, 06:36 PM

WOW!! A VERY NEAT SPEAR/LANCE, UNFORTUNATELY I HAVE NO IDEA WHERE IT MIGHT HAVE COME FROM. THE SPEAR POINT DOES APPEAR TO BE MADE FOR PIERCING ARMOR AND THE WAY THE SHAFT IS MADE IT LOOKS LIKE IT COULD BE GRIPPED SHORT OR LONG FOR A STRONG THRUST. IS IT LONG ENOUGH TO BE USED FROM HORSEBACK OR CHARIOT? I WOULD SAY IT IS MOSTLY FOR THRUSTING NOT FOR THROWING THE GAURD ALSO KEEPS IT FROM PASSING CLEAR THRU SO IT CAN BE QUICKLY WITHDRAWN FOR MORE THRUSTING. I HOPE SOMEONE MORE KNOWLEGBLE CAN TELL US WHAT IT IS, PERHAPS A UNUSUAL FORM OF CHINESE OR JAPANESE SPEAR ,BUT I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT. PERHAPS SOME CLOSE PICTURES OF THE SHAFT OR BUTT AND OF ANY DESIGNS WHOULD HELP GET A POSITIVE ID. GOOD LUCK

Tim Simmons · 5th March 2006, 07:09 PM

Fabulous! Could this be European? Could this be some kind of hunting or boar spear? Maybe Indian. It certainly looks heavy enough to be used mounted on a horse. I think it could be European, I will add a picture shortly. This picture got me thinking European or Anglo/Indian sort of area. The haft is so far away from the Malay/Indonesian spears I have seen, not that is a lot. This hunting spear is 18th cent? Tim

galvano · 5th March 2006, 07:36 PM

Hello
With a pole in bamboo.
I do not think that is European . vietnam ? china ? it is oriental!
galvano

Tim Simmons · 5th March 2006, 08:42 PM

Is the haft bamboo? I have seen 19th cent British cavalry lances with bamboo hafts. The stop at the base of the blade looks a bit European. Tim

ingelred · 5th March 2006, 09:39 PM

Hello,

I don't know why but the triangular cross section (does the spear have a triangular cross section? - in the pictures it appears to have one) and the shape of the blade reminds me of the Japanese Yari.

Greetings, Helge

Titus Pullo · 5th March 2006, 11:05 PM

I quite positive that's Siamese. The gurad on the spear is typical Siamese design. But I could be wrong.

Andrew · 5th March 2006, 11:09 PM

I think this is continental SEA as well. Thailand, or possibly Vietnam.

Titus Pullo · 5th March 2006, 11:12 PM

Possibly! But the guard is a typical and very common Siamese design. You will find that kind of flower like shape on temple walls, painting, carving, and just about anywhere if they can fit it in. that's why I really do think it's very Siamese.

Andrew · 5th March 2006, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titus Pullo

Possibly! But the guard is a typical and very common Siamese design. You will find that kind of flower like shape on temple walls, painting, carving, and just about anywhere if they can fit it in. that's why I really do think it's very Siamese.

I was hedging my bets.

PUFF · 6th March 2006, 07:39 AM

Definitely Siamese, native name is "Hawk". Mid Ayuthaya to early Rattanakosin (200-400 yo). The guard and blade shape indicated that the spear is footman's weapon. The square guard called "Chenk" should be loosely attached to the pole and can be freely rotated. But it 's possible to get ones are rusted or glued to the pole. The leaf-shaped blade was forged from a square bar. In your case, I noticed folded steel blade which indicates that the spear might be as old as mid-Ayuthaya period.

The pole made from specially cultivated Bamboo stick, which was carefully pruned for years. That means the bamboo was "born to be" a spear pole. This spear is a museum quality one and I 'm very glad that it is under posession of a good collector.

Heare are some similar spears.
http://www.wangdermpalace.com/exhibi..._stabbing.html

http://www.thailandmuseum.com/bangkok/rwutboran.htm

Tim Simmons · 6th March 2006, 08:21 AM

Indeed

!!

VVV · 6th March 2006, 09:09 AM

Thanks for all the help in putting an ID to this spear!
It's also great to have a reference picture and thanks to PUFF for the further description.
The "Chenk" is a bit loose and can be rotated.
The bamboo pole/shaft is impressingly strong so it makes sense that it was cultivated as you described.

Michael

Titus Pullo · 6th March 2006, 09:27 AM

You're welcome VVV!

And, thank you for the museum's link, PUFF! I've been trying to find links like that for quite sometimes but haven't got around to it.

Titus Pullo · 7th March 2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Thanks for all the help in putting an ID to this spear!
It's also great to have a reference picture and thanks to PUFF for the further description.
The "Chenk" is a bit loose and can be rotated.
The bamboo pole/shaft is impressingly strong so it makes sense that it was cultivated as you described.

Michael

I like the way the Siamese thinks, and it shows in their art work, martial art, and weapons (at least the way they decorate them). You know...being soft as silk, but hard as diamonds. No guts...no glory!

Or as the Romans liked to put it...float like a butterfly....sting like a wasp.

Andrew · 7th March 2006, 02:43 PM

PUFF, could you tell me more about these spears? Why does the chenk indicate a footman's weapon, as opposed to one used from horse or elephant-back?

Also, how long would this type of shaft typically be, and how were they affixed to the spear head? Could you describe the cultivation process?

Finally, are there any English-language sources on these spears (or any ancient Thai weapons, for that matter) that you can direct me to?

Many thanks,
Andrew

PUFF · 8th March 2006, 09:37 AM

Dear Andrew, There are two major constructs for Siamese spears. The first one is "Hawk" (or Horg), footman spear. The blades were forged from square iron bar and attached with a square guard (spear #1 and #4 in my 1st pic). You may notice thick square cross section 's left at the shaft-end of the blade

. I think this profile 's designed for stab & twist.
As you may already know, traditional weapons were tailer-made. Lenght of each spear is usually about arm-rised height of the owner. The shaft can be wood or bamboo with no or little tapered toward spear 's blade.

Calvary units use another construct, called "Tuan", for their spear. Profile at the shaft-end of the blade is round. There is no "Chenk" but there are globe(s) on the ferrule with a set of tassel right above one of the globe. (see spear #2 and #3) "Tuan" 's shafts are longer then "Hawk" and can be tapered toward both end.

Fighting on elephant 's neck is a long lost art. I 'm about to ask master Chartchai at Arthamaat this month. I will let you know later.

Sorry for I cannot direct you to english version source or text for Siamese weaponaries and tactics (not many in Thai though

). Most of my knowledge are from people, collectors are good source. You can also get stories from historians and weapon masters. And, in some cases, the weapon itself can tell stories. For the time being, you can visit these sites
http://www.sarakadee.net/feature/200...thamaat_en.htm
http://www.muaychaiya.com/index_en.html

I 'm not pretending to be an expert in Thai weapons. I can share only what I heard. Most of them are verified but some aren't. However, most of what I heard are from well known experts in that field.

Either, I don't know much about the bamboo cultivation. What I know is a specific variety of bamboo have to be used. Their root are pruned to minimize growth rate (similar to Bonzi). Any bending is corrected in situ. In this way, their nodes are closer to each other than those of regular bamboo. So, the cane has more "meat". Bamboo cultivation is only on door from being a lost art. Fortunately, one of my friend is a collector and he seems to know detailed procedure for bamboo cultivation. I may learn from him some day.

Titus Pullo · 8th March 2006, 11:58 AM

I like the foot soldiers' spear. It looks like a sound design. Using the shear mass and weight of the spear, I think it may even be able to peirce the armors quite easily; it certainly can peirce one right through the cavity, the trechea area between the colar bones, and the abdomen (inorder to gut someone quite brutally).

This reminds me of the Roman pilums, except they are sleeker in design for throwing to maximise penatration of the enemies' shields and armors. From I can tell you by lookig the pictures of the basic design of the pilums if you throw it right, as the pilum is decending onto the enemies at an arc, it should pick up more speed because of the weight at the front. And the sleeker design allows it to peirce through the air as it travels. I think to throw the pilum correctly (according to my observation of the design) you should think as if you are throwing the metal ball and to try to throw it at the intended target. The ball is also there to add more weight. That's my two cents, so don't take my words for it.

PUFF · 6th April 2006, 01:24 PM

Some of Thai books mention about "Howk" on elephant 's back. I asked Khun Bancha, an expert/collector of Dahb Thai. He told me that most weapons on the elephant are pole-arms. Beside using as weapons, hey also function as a signal (similar way to flags). Footmen 's spear 's unlikely but possible to be there as a signaling item. Another possibility is "Hawk" refers to "HowkSaad", which means throwing spear. I still need to see another expert for more information though

.

sabertasche · 6th April 2006, 05:43 PM

Guys, I've always heard that male bamboo was used in lances for the British/Indian army as this type of bamboo has no air pockets in it. Female bamboo has the air pockets and was structurally weaker. Can anyone confirm this?

Greg

Rick · 6th April 2006, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabertasche

Guys, I've always heard that male bamboo was used in lances for the British/Indian army as this type of bamboo has no air pockets in it. Female bamboo has the air pockets and was structurally weaker. Can anyone confirm this?

Greg

I'm afraid this may be a myth ; my Wife is a serious grower of bamboo and says that since it is essentially a member of the grass family this is not possible .
Having said that , the varieties of bamboo are legion in number so as discussed before in this thread I'm pretty sure spear haft bamboo is a particular variety .

Titus Pullo · 6th April 2006, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

Some of Thai books mention about "Howk" on elephant 's back. I asked Khun Bancha, an expert/collector of Dahb Thai. He told me that most weapons on the elephant are pole-arms. Beside using as weapons, hey also function as a signal (similar way to flags). Footmen 's spear 's unlikely but possible to be there as a signaling item. Another possibility is "Hawk" refers to "HowkSaad", which means throwing spear. I still need to see another expert for more information though

.

Since you show a pic of war elephant, I like to mention that elephants were not used as tank to break through enemies' lines because they were difficult animals to control, and when they get hurt, noone is safe...not even your soldiers. they kill everyone insight...literally! Rather, I think they were as vehicle for the king and people protecting him. As you can see, they don't bow and arrows on elephants neither. I think this is because if they make themselves targets, your enemies would most likely try kill your elephants by disemboweling them. They get underneath them after, ofcourse, having to fight through guards, guarding the elephants.

Andrew · 7th April 2006, 02:54 AM

PUFF, thank you for sharing your experience and information with us! Once again, you have helped answer questions we would only be able to guess at previously.

Please thank your friend, Khun Bancha, for his help as well. It would be fantastic to have him join the forum.

6th April 2006, 05:43 PM	#20
sabertasche Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 149	Thoughts on Bamboo for Lances Guys, I've always heard that male bamboo was used in lances for the British/Indian army as this type of bamboo has no air pockets in it. Female bamboo has the air pockets and was structurally weaker. Can anyone confirm this? Greg

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5th March 2006, 06:12 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Spear ID? Hi all, I found this spear last Spring but haven't been able to identify it. Honestly at first I hoped it would be Malay or Sumatran but after some research I don't think so anymore. Hopefully some of the forum members recognise it? Is it Siam, Vietnam or...? As you can see the lower end of the spearpoint, just before the tang, is square. Michael Attached Images

5th March 2006, 06:36 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WOW!! A VERY NEAT SPEAR/LANCE, UNFORTUNATELY I HAVE NO IDEA WHERE IT MIGHT HAVE COME FROM. THE SPEAR POINT DOES APPEAR TO BE MADE FOR PIERCING ARMOR AND THE WAY THE SHAFT IS MADE IT LOOKS LIKE IT COULD BE GRIPPED SHORT OR LONG FOR A STRONG THRUST. IS IT LONG ENOUGH TO BE USED FROM HORSEBACK OR CHARIOT? I WOULD SAY IT IS MOSTLY FOR THRUSTING NOT FOR THROWING THE GAURD ALSO KEEPS IT FROM PASSING CLEAR THRU SO IT CAN BE QUICKLY WITHDRAWN FOR MORE THRUSTING. I HOPE SOMEONE MORE KNOWLEGBLE CAN TELL US WHAT IT IS, PERHAPS A UNUSUAL FORM OF CHINESE OR JAPANESE SPEAR ,BUT I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT. PERHAPS SOME CLOSE PICTURES OF THE SHAFT OR BUTT AND OF ANY DESIGNS WHOULD HELP GET A POSITIVE ID. GOOD LUCK

5th March 2006, 07:09 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Fabulous! Could this be European? Could this be some kind of hunting or boar spear? Maybe Indian. It certainly looks heavy enough to be used mounted on a horse. I think it could be European, I will add a picture shortly. This picture got me thinking European or Anglo/Indian sort of area. The haft is so far away from the Malay/Indonesian spears I have seen, not that is a lot. This hunting spear is 18th cent? Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 5th March 2006 at 07:23 PM.

5th March 2006, 07:36 PM	#4
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	hi Hello With a pole in bamboo. I do not think that is European . vietnam ? china ? it is oriental! galvano

5th March 2006, 08:42 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Is the haft bamboo? I have seen 19th cent British cavalry lances with bamboo hafts. The stop at the base of the blade looks a bit European. Tim

5th March 2006, 09:39 PM	#6
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	Hello, I don't know why but the triangular cross section (does the spear have a triangular cross section? - in the pictures it appears to have one) and the shape of the blade reminds me of the Japanese Yari. Greetings, Helge

5th March 2006, 11:05 PM	#7
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	I quite positive that's Siamese. The gurad on the spear is typical Siamese design. But I could be wrong.

5th March 2006, 11:09 PM	#8
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I think this is continental SEA as well. Thailand, or possibly Vietnam.

5th March 2006, 11:12 PM	#9
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	Possibly! But the guard is a typical and very common Siamese design. You will find that kind of flower like shape on temple walls, painting, carving, and just about anywhere if they can fit it in. that's why I really do think it's very Siamese.

6th March 2006, 07:39 AM	#11
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Definitely Siamese, native name is "Hawk". Mid Ayuthaya to early Rattanakosin (200-400 yo). The guard and blade shape indicated that the spear is footman's weapon. The square guard called "Chenk" should be loosely attached to the pole and can be freely rotated. But it 's possible to get ones are rusted or glued to the pole. The leaf-shaped blade was forged from a square bar. In your case, I noticed folded steel blade which indicates that the spear might be as old as mid-Ayuthaya period. The pole made from specially cultivated Bamboo stick, which was carefully pruned for years. That means the bamboo was "born to be" a spear pole. This spear is a museum quality one and I 'm very glad that it is under posession of a good collector. Heare are some similar spears. http://www.wangdermpalace.com/exhibi..._stabbing.html http://www.thailandmuseum.com/bangkok/rwutboran.htm

6th March 2006, 08:21 AM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Indeed !!

6th March 2006, 09:09 AM	#13
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for all the help in putting an ID to this spear! It's also great to have a reference picture and thanks to PUFF for the further description. The "Chenk" is a bit loose and can be rotated. The bamboo pole/shaft is impressingly strong so it makes sense that it was cultivated as you described. Michael

6th March 2006, 09:27 AM	#14
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	You're welcome VVV! And, thank you for the museum's link, PUFF! I've been trying to find links like that for quite sometimes but haven't got around to it.

7th March 2006, 02:43 PM	#16
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	PUFF, could you tell me more about these spears? Why does the chenk indicate a footman's weapon, as opposed to one used from horse or elephant-back? Also, how long would this type of shaft typically be, and how were they affixed to the spear head? Could you describe the cultivation process? Finally, are there any English-language sources on these spears (or any ancient Thai weapons, for that matter) that you can direct me to? Many thanks, Andrew

8th March 2006, 09:37 AM	#17
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Dear Andrew, There are two major constructs for Siamese spears. The first one is "Hawk" (or Horg), footman spear. The blades were forged from square iron bar and attached with a square guard (spear #1 and #4 in my 1st pic). You may notice thick square cross section 's left at the shaft-end of the blade . I think this profile 's designed for stab & twist. As you may already know, traditional weapons were tailer-made. Lenght of each spear is usually about arm-rised height of the owner. The shaft can be wood or bamboo with no or little tapered toward spear 's blade. Calvary units use another construct, called "Tuan", for their spear. Profile at the shaft-end of the blade is round. There is no "Chenk" but there are globe(s) on the ferrule with a set of tassel right above one of the globe. (see spear #2 and #3) "Tuan" 's shafts are longer then "Hawk" and can be tapered toward both end. Fighting on elephant 's neck is a long lost art. I 'm about to ask master Chartchai at Arthamaat this month. I will let you know later. Sorry for I cannot direct you to english version source or text for Siamese weaponaries and tactics (not many in Thai though ). Most of my knowledge are from people, collectors are good source. You can also get stories from historians and weapon masters. And, in some cases, the weapon itself can tell stories. For the time being, you can visit these sites http://www.sarakadee.net/feature/200...thamaat_en.htm http://www.muaychaiya.com/index_en.html I 'm not pretending to be an expert in Thai weapons. I can share only what I heard. Most of them are verified but some aren't. However, most of what I heard are from well known experts in that field. Either, I don't know much about the bamboo cultivation. What I know is a specific variety of bamboo have to be used. Their root are pruned to minimize growth rate (similar to Bonzi). Any bending is corrected in situ. In this way, their nodes are closer to each other than those of regular bamboo. So, the cane has more "meat". Bamboo cultivation is only on door from being a lost art. Fortunately, one of my friend is a collector and he seems to know detailed procedure for bamboo cultivation. I may learn from him some day.

8th March 2006, 11:58 AM	#18
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	I like the foot soldiers' spear. It looks like a sound design. Using the shear mass and weight of the spear, I think it may even be able to peirce the armors quite easily; it certainly can peirce one right through the cavity, the trechea area between the colar bones, and the abdomen (inorder to gut someone quite brutally). This reminds me of the Roman pilums, except they are sleeker in design for throwing to maximise penatration of the enemies' shields and armors. From I can tell you by lookig the pictures of the basic design of the pilums if you throw it right, as the pilum is decending onto the enemies at an arc, it should pick up more speed because of the weight at the front. And the sleeker design allows it to peirce through the air as it travels. I think to throw the pilum correctly (according to my observation of the design) you should think as if you are throwing the metal ball and to try to throw it at the intended target. The ball is also there to add more weight. That's my two cents, so don't take my words for it.

6th April 2006, 01:24 PM	#19
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Some of Thai books mention about "Howk" on elephant 's back. I asked Khun Bancha, an expert/collector of Dahb Thai. He told me that most weapons on the elephant are pole-arms. Beside using as weapons, hey also function as a signal (similar way to flags). Footmen 's spear 's unlikely but possible to be there as a signaling item. Another possibility is "Hawk" refers to "HowkSaad", which means throwing spear. I still need to see another expert for more information though .

7th April 2006, 02:54 AM	#23
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	PUFF, thank you for sharing your experience and information with us! Once again, you have helped answer questions we would only be able to guess at previously. Please thank your friend, Khun Bancha, for his help as well. It would be fantastic to have him join the forum.