Show us your Talismanic markings on keris blades

[drdavid]

Jean, what are the dimensions on this piece. I have previously owned a couple of knives that had been made from old files. They still had a little cross hatching visible over a fair amount of the blade
Drd

[Rick]

It looks like it's made from an old wood rasp to me.

One flat side; one convex side.
Seems like the cross section of a rasp flattened out.

[David]

I'm afraid i am in agreement with both Rick and DrDavid. It appears that you blade was made from a file. I've seen many in my day and the result looks very much like this. Even if this were not the case though, i wouldn't image that a pattern of lines like this would have any talismanic purpose. We often find markings on blades both decorative or practical that do not have any talismanic intent.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

I'm afraid i am in agreement with both Rick and DrDavid. It appears that you blade was made from a file. I've seen many in my day and the result looks very much like this. Even if this were not the case though, i wouldn't image that a pattern of lines like this would have any talismanic purpose. We often find markings on blades both decorative or practical that do not have any talismanic intent.

Hi David,
Although I do not believe that this blade is a recycled file or rasp for the reasons explained above, I agree that these rustic markings are more probably decorative or practical than talismanic.
Regards

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hi David,
Although I do not believe that this blade is a recycled file or rasp for the reasons explained above, I agree that these rustic markings are more probably decorative or practical than talismanic.
Regards

Hello Jean,

disagree with you, sorry. I also own some old blades made from files or rasps, it's a typical sign for this. Files/rasps has been high regarded as material for good blades. Good iron material was not found at every corner in old times!

Regards,
Detlef

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,

disagree with you, sorry. I also own some old blades made from files or rasps, it's a typical sign for this. Files/rasps has been high regarded as material for good blades. Good iron material was not found at every corner in old times!

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,
You have the right to disagree but I maintain my opinion that my blade was not made from a file or rasp and I have the advantage over you to have it in front of me, the pics cannot capture the details of the crisscross lines. And I have plenty of worn files and can make the difference in the pattern even if the old Indonesian files were probably more rustic....
It seems that we will not get a consensus on this subject and I will personally not comment it anymore
Regards

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Detlef,
You have the right to disagree but I maintain my opinion that my blade was not made from a file or rasp and I have the advantage over you to have it in front of me, the pics cannot capture the details of the crisscross lines. And I have plenty of worn files and can make the difference in the pattern even if the old Indonesian files were probably more rustic....
It seems that we will not get a consensus on this subject and I will personally not comment it anymore
Regards

Jean,

I understand your position on the chopper of yours.
Have a look at this old knife, early 20th century Bhutan, from a file, I think I have another here to share too, but look close at the formation. This was a thick spine with good distal taper to a very hard and sharp edge...not the pattern, even after grinding to shape, the lines are retained throughout its surfaces.
I am sure you've seen such things but for the discussion, I think the image is relevant.

Gavin

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Detlef,
You have the right to disagree but I maintain my opinion that my blade was not made from a file or rasp and I have the advantage over you to have it in front of me, the pics cannot capture the details of the crisscross lines. And I have plenty of worn files and can make the difference in the pattern even if the old Indonesian files were probably more rustic....
It seems that we will not get a consensus on this subject and I will personally not comment it anymore
Regards

Hello Jean,

my comment wasn't meant in the direction to attack you in any manner. Sorry when it appeared like this. It was just my opinion and of course it is something different to hold it in hand or see it only by pictures.

Regards,
Detlef

[Gavin Nugent]

I can see the confusion from who ever noted that the Tajong blade pattern is a talisman in nature. The markings on the tajong blade are to my eye are also that of a vice. The small knife shown later is certainly made from a file as indicated.

Such patterning on the Tajong is known in the Patani/North Malay regions but it does not start and end there. Below is an example from my personal collections that gives a partial indication of how it should look...I say partial as there is much more to these marks than what meets the eye in the image.

Gavin

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

I can see the confusion from who ever noted that the Tajong blade pattern is a talisman in nature. The markings on the tajong blade are to my eye are also that of a vice. The small knife shown later is certainly made from a file as indicated.

Such patterning on the Tajong is known in the Patani/North Malay regions but it does not start and end there. Below is an example from my personal collections that gives a partial indication of how it should look...I say partial as there is much more to these marks than what meets the eye in the image.

Gavin

Hello Gavin,
Some of the marks on you blade are clearly located in a cavity, so how could they have been imprinted by a vice?
You are correct that it is difficult to assess and interpret these marks from a picture.
Regards

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Gavin,
Some of the marks on you blade are clearly located in a cavity, so how could they have been imprinted by a vice?
You are correct that it is difficult to assess and interpret these marks from a picture.
Regards

Jean,

That is the point I make, those on my blade are part of a talismanic pamor, not a vice.

I presented this image for comparison to those on the Tajong above.

Gavin

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Jean,

That is the point I make, those on my blade are part of a talismanic pamor, not a vice.

I presented this image for comparison to those on the Tajong above.

Gavin

Hi Gavin,
Sorry for the misunderstanding and I agree with you.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

That is the point I make, those on my blade are part of a talismanic pamor, not a vice.

One might argue that all pamor that is intentionally manipulated to create a pattern that holds symbolic meaning for its owner is "talismanic" in nature. I would also argue though that these lines cannot be considered "part of a talismanic pamor" as they are applied after the fact, no. And if we could show that these lines are intentional, and not merely the artifact of time in a vise, or in some cases because the blade itself was forged from file, that still does not provide any evidence that their intention was meant to be of a talismanic nature and not merely decorative. I am certainly open to new information on how these cross-hatched lines hold some spiritual or mystical meaning, but until then they are nothing more than decorative patterns to me, regardless of how they occurred. When this thread was opened i had really hoped we might see more examples of verifiable talismanic markings on keris blades. We all know there are many varieties that can indeed legitimately be called talismanic. Yet we seem to have devoted this thread to forging flaws and unverifiable cross-hatched markings. Surely we can find some markings that we can all agree are talismanic to talk about on this thread.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

One might argue that all pamor that is intentionally manipulated to create a pattern that holds symbolic meaning for its owner is "talismanic" in nature. I would also argue though that these lines cannot be considered "part of a talismanic pamor" as they are applied after the fact, no. And if we could show that these lines are intentional, and not merely the artifact of time in a vise, or in some cases because the blade itself was forged from file, that still does not provide any evidence that their intention was meant to be of a talismanic nature and not merely decorative. I am certainly open to new information on how these cross-hatched lines hold some spiritual or mystical meaning, but until then they are nothing more than decorative patterns to me, regardless of how they occurred. When this thread was opened i had really hoped we might see more examples of verifiable talismanic markings on keris blades. We all know there are many varieties that can indeed legitimately be called talismanic. Yet we seem to have devoted this thread to forging flaws and unverifiable cross-hatched markings. Surely we can find some markings that we can all agree are talismanic to talk about on this thread.

David,

Perhaps I should not have included the image and details I did as the thread is about markings not pamor. In retrospect, to me, two vastly different things, one being manipulation of steel, the other an application of markings.

The image I presented is the result of steel manipulation, however, it is I guess, still a good reference point.

Gavin

[Jean]

Originally Posted by drdavid

Jean, what are the dimensions on this piece. I have previously owned a couple of knives that had been made from old files. They still had a little cross hatching visible over a fair amount of the blade
Drd

Hi Drdavid,
The blade is 17.2 cm long by 4.3 cm wide and 4.5 mm maximum thickness (6.8 x 1.7 x 0.18 inch). This appears too wide for a rasp or file (the piece would have been originally wider) and furthermore the crisscross lines near the tang are not parallel to those near the tip (more slanted) which would not be the case if the piece had been made from a rasp or file. There are also traces of crisscross lines on the flat (non-cutting) edge of the blade.
Regards