the lost oakeshott sword

[cornelistromp]

Hi Mark,

thanks.

btw have you seen this constructed S before in an inscription?

in 1250 the sword type was probably more common, the image of BIG swords with similar pommels can be seen in 13thC manuscripts.

now, however big swords are less common, there are only 5 early medieval swords known having a width of about 7cm. in any case, more than 6cm

re: G22 Durendal
yes that is correct, in an inventory by caspar Bricio made in 1503.
he describes this sword named Joyosa belonging to Roldan

"se dice la joyosa de bel cortar, que fue de Roldan"

best,
jasper

[Reventlov]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

btw have you seen this constructed S before in an inscription?

in 1250 the sword type was probably more common, the image of BIG swords with similar pommels can be seen in 13thC manuscripts.

That's a great illustration of this type of blade.

Good question about the form of the letter S... I cannot recall having seen such a form before, but would have to start inspecting photos to say for sure. I'll write you if I ever come across one... A form that is not uncommon is the S written as two separate opposing arcs, something like "CƆ", so in principle at least there is no problem with letters made of separate segments.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Reventlov

That's a great illustration of this type of blade.

not only the blade actually also the wide pommel.

best,

[silberschatzimsee]

really very nice swords. its a shame that some scrupeled people ruin them.

[Clive Thomas]

Hi Jasper,

So good to see this sword again, post restoration. Whoever did the work has done an excellent job, and I was delighted to see the SOS marks that had been hidden for so long too.

[Cerjak]

It is a great opportunity to have a post from Clive Thomas .
It is his first post in the forum .
Hoping It will have More post from him.
Best
Cerjak
see
King of Emirs. Pious donations of European swords to the Arsenal of Alexandria during the time of the Viceroy Sayf al?din Aristay'
Author : Clive Thomas

Additional Notes on the Swords of Castillon'
Author : Clive Thomas

Notes on a small group of swords from the Arsenal of Alexandria'
Author : Clive Thomas

[fernando]

It is indeed with great satisfaction that we welcome to this forum such medieval swords authority like Mr. Clive Thomas.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

re: G22 Durendal
yes that is correct, in an inventory by caspar Bricio made in 1503.
he describes this sword named Joyosa belonging to Roldan

"se dice la joyosa de bel cortar, que fue de Roldan"

best,
jasper

I only want to place some references with respect of this sword. Carlos Travesedo y García Sancho, 26vo Conde de Valencia de Don Juan, in his Catálogo de la Real Armería de Madrid, Fototipias de Hauser y Menet, Madrid, 1898, writes on the pages 204-205, the following words:

"The so-called sword of Roldan has a metal workmanship on the scabbard proper of a Spanish craftsman from the 13th Century, and this is confirmed by the craftsmanship and proportions of the blade, and by the comparison with other swords from this period found in the museums, codex and illustration. The confusion came from the time of the Catholic Kings, as proved by the inventory made in Segovia in 1503, mentioning the sword Joyeuse. It is known that always were invented singular and incredible origins for many objects from past times, without any study or basis, pretending to give them a undeserved importance by association with famous personages. Only in this way can be explained a so great error as attributing to Roldan a sword made 500 years after."

And David Nicolle, in astudy of two swords found in a cave in Gibraltar, in relation with the so-called sword of Roland, writes:

“Furthermore the sword with straight quillons was suggested as a Christian adaptation of an early version of the ‘jinete sword’; parallels being drawn with the 13th century Sword of King Sancho IV in Toledo Cathedral (figure 48) In fact the closest parallel appears to be between the blades of the Gibraltar swords and the weapon known as ‘The Sword of Roland’ in the Real Armeria (figure 34). This latter weapon is generally regarded as a 13th century Spanish war-sword, rather than one to be worn while in civilian dress. According to Baron de la Vega de Hoz its blade is 88 cms long with a maximum width of 73 mm. This would give it very similar dimensions to the Gibraltar swords in their original condition. Most other scholars who have seen the Gibraltar swords or pictures of them agree on an Islamic, and usually a specifically Western Islamic, provenance while suggesting a rather later date than I am offering. For example, Ihsan Hindi suggested that their overall form and decoration pointed to Cordoba some time in the 13th century. Maya Schatzmiller preferred North Africa and a date as late as the 14th or even 15th century while Ewart Oakeshott would say no more than they they were clearly Islamic."

David Nicolle, “Two Swords from the Foundation of Gibraltar”, Gladius, Vol. XXII, 2002, pp.168 and 170.

[cornelistromp]

Gonzalo,

very interesting, can you maybe post a picture of the Gibraltar swords?

thanks,
Jasper

[fernando]

Hello Jasper,

I wonder why Gonzalo has not been around for quite a few days. Have you tried this link:

GIBRALTAR SWORDS

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hello Jasper,

I wonder why Gonzalo has not been around for quite a few days. Have you tried this link:

GIBRALTAR SWORDS

Hi Fernando,

yes thanks, that helps.

best,
Jasper

[J.G.Elmslie]

I dont post here nearly often enough, instead lurking every so often.

But I felt I had to come up to the surface to say that I'm overjoyed to see the sympathetic restoration of this sword, and the removal of that offending grafted piece.

I cant help wonder, is the offending part now destroyed? I've been talking a lot with a few other craftsmen like Peter, Fabrice Cognot, and Paul Binns of late about the issues of forgeries, and if its still around, I wonder if it could be put to use as a perfect example of a modern piece that's been aged, and thus used as a reference for metallurgical / XRF study, to help identify other forgeries?

(In my own field of single-edged arms, I'm rather inclined to think of one particular single-edged sword auctioned by Hermann Historica a few years ago that I identified as a composite of two blades spliced together in a similar manner to your sword's extension.)

[cornelistromp]

Hi James,

Thank you, yes I am very pleased with the successful restoration, thumbs to the restorer of the Solingen Klingen Museum.

unfortunately I have not received the 14cm removed point back from the restorer , probably it was thrown away/wasted.
By the way, I believe this point was not new and aged but coming from another medieval sword blade!

best,
jasper