Candi Sukuh

mariusgmioc · 14th November 2016, 12:25 PM

Very beautiful place. I hope they will be successful in restoring it to its former glory!

Thank you for sharing this.

PS: Are there more representations of a Keris or there is only the one in the first photos?

GIO · 14th November 2016, 05:35 PM

Many thanks, Alan. A really fascinating place !

A. G. Maisey · 14th November 2016, 09:56 PM

There are a number of carvings with keris stuck into their belts, I've identified perhaps the more obvious one of these in the pages I've linked to.

Here is a pic of another keris, its already in the pages linked to, P.3.

Here is a link to a page in my "Interpretation ---" article that shows the best known Candi Sukuh keris, scroll down, image 14 :-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE3.html

this one is now in Jakarta.

I've visited Candi Sukuh numerous times, in the past, when I have stayed in Jawa my house has been in a village behind Palur, which is at the foot of the climb up to Mt. Lawu, so its even closer than Solo. To find all the keris took me a lot of time, I didn't find them all during one visit, it took a lot of visits and hours of trying to work out shapeless lumps of eroded statuary.

As to "restoring to former glory", I'm confident it will be a very professional restoration, these people have had a lot of experience with that, but as with the local people in the area, I am equally certain that when it has been restored the spirit that was previously in residence will have flown. It will be a beautiful, but empty piece of architecture.

David · 15th November 2016, 04:50 AM

Thanks Alan!

mariusgmioc · 15th November 2016, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here is a pic of another keris, its already in the pages linked to, P.3.

Thank you Alan for the explanations!

But to me the blade in the last photo looks more like a Pedang than a Kris. An there is also the way it is held in the hand that doesn't seem right for a Keris.

A. G. Maisey · 15th November 2016, 07:28 AM

Marius, when we are dealing with keris history and development it is very important to realise that we must be able to understand what we are looking at in terms that are relevant to the period concerned.

We cannot determine what is, and what is not a keris based upon our view of the keris at the present time, in fact what we call a keris now was probably not the name, or not the only name, for keris-like objects in the period when Old Javanese was the common language.

However, setting aside the historic variation in names, and only considering what we can see in this carving. The overall blade form has the leaf-shaped blade that is a characteristic of the keris, a line provides evidence of a gonjo, the blade base widens as does the base of the keris, this blade base is asymmetric, as is the blade base of most Modern Keris. By any measure this weapon is a keris.

If you consider that it cannot be a keris because of proportion, I ask you to consider the keris of Bali, and the enormous old North coast kerises that were usually tangguh Tuban.

In fact, a keris can also be a pedang, as is the Balinese ligan, and one of the names for a keris is "kadgo", which comes from the Sanscrit and means "sword"; it often forms a part of the Court name given to an empu, as in Empu Pusposukadgo.

In respect of how this keris in the carving is held, I guess that you have in mind the well known rapier style grip that anchors the index finger and thumb into the blumbangan and uses the jejeran only as a locator. This modern Javanese grip is only one of many possible grips that can be used with the keris, it is the usual grip employed in Javanese court dances, and it is the "polite" grip, but a keris can also be used with an overhand grip, like any dagger, it can be used with a hammer grip, it can be used as you see it held in this carving, in fact, the way it is held in this carving echoes the grip used with a Balinese keris when in combat.

The understanding of what is, and what is not a keris is not limited to narrow parameters, the name "keris" can be employed very broadly. However, in this present example broad application is not necessary, this is a keris by any modern measure

mariusgmioc · 15th November 2016, 02:11 PM

Thank you Alan for the explanations!

It is a very interesting history how the Keris appeared and evolved throughout the history.

Strange that each time after reading your postings I feel like packing and going back to Indonesia for a month or so...

A. G. Maisey · 15th November 2016, 11:25 PM

Yeah, a month or so, especially as a tourist can be pretty nice.

Stay in a nice hotel, preferably with aircon and hot and cold running servants, private car with driver waiting to take you where you want to go.

Clean bathroom and plumbing that works.

Lunch in a pendopo set in a garden.

I've done that a few times. Definitely pretty nice.

But at the other end of the scale it gets a bit closer to the bone, and in my opinion this is where we need to be to gain any understanding at all.

14th November 2016, 09:56 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,770	There are a number of carvings with keris stuck into their belts, I've identified perhaps the more obvious one of these in the pages I've linked to. Here is a pic of another keris, its already in the pages linked to, P.3. Here is a link to a page in my "Interpretation ---" article that shows the best known Candi Sukuh keris, scroll down, image 14 :- http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE3.html this one is now in Jakarta. I've visited Candi Sukuh numerous times, in the past, when I have stayed in Jawa my house has been in a village behind Palur, which is at the foot of the climb up to Mt. Lawu, so its even closer than Solo. To find all the keris took me a lot of time, I didn't find them all during one visit, it took a lot of visits and hours of trying to work out shapeless lumps of eroded statuary. As to "restoring to former glory", I'm confident it will be a very professional restoration, these people have had a lot of experience with that, but as with the local people in the area, I am equally certain that when it has been restored the spirit that was previously in residence will have flown. It will be a beautiful, but empty piece of architecture. Attached Images

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

14th November 2016, 12:25 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,893	Very beautiful place. I hope they will be successful in restoring it to its former glory! Thank you for sharing this. PS: Are there more representations of a Keris or there is only the one in the first photos?

14th November 2016, 05:35 PM	#2
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Many thanks, Alan. A really fascinating place !

15th November 2016, 04:50 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,061	Thanks Alan!

15th November 2016, 07:28 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,770	Marius, when we are dealing with keris history and development it is very important to realise that we must be able to understand what we are looking at in terms that are relevant to the period concerned. We cannot determine what is, and what is not a keris based upon our view of the keris at the present time, in fact what we call a keris now was probably not the name, or not the only name, for keris-like objects in the period when Old Javanese was the common language. However, setting aside the historic variation in names, and only considering what we can see in this carving. The overall blade form has the leaf-shaped blade that is a characteristic of the keris, a line provides evidence of a gonjo, the blade base widens as does the base of the keris, this blade base is asymmetric, as is the blade base of most Modern Keris. By any measure this weapon is a keris. If you consider that it cannot be a keris because of proportion, I ask you to consider the keris of Bali, and the enormous old North coast kerises that were usually tangguh Tuban. In fact, a keris can also be a pedang, as is the Balinese ligan, and one of the names for a keris is "kadgo", which comes from the Sanscrit and means "sword"; it often forms a part of the Court name given to an empu, as in Empu Pusposukadgo. In respect of how this keris in the carving is held, I guess that you have in mind the well known rapier style grip that anchors the index finger and thumb into the blumbangan and uses the jejeran only as a locator. This modern Javanese grip is only one of many possible grips that can be used with the keris, it is the usual grip employed in Javanese court dances, and it is the "polite" grip, but a keris can also be used with an overhand grip, like any dagger, it can be used with a hammer grip, it can be used as you see it held in this carving, in fact, the way it is held in this carving echoes the grip used with a Balinese keris when in combat. The understanding of what is, and what is not a keris is not limited to narrow parameters, the name "keris" can be employed very broadly. However, in this present example broad application is not necessary, this is a keris by any modern measure

15th November 2016, 02:11 PM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,893	Thank you Alan for the explanations! It is a very interesting history how the Keris appeared and evolved throughout the history. Strange that each time after reading your postings I feel like packing and going back to Indonesia for a month or so...

15th November 2016, 11:25 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,770	Yeah, a month or so, especially as a tourist can be pretty nice. Stay in a nice hotel, preferably with aircon and hot and cold running servants, private car with driver waiting to take you where you want to go. Clean bathroom and plumbing that works. Lunch in a pendopo set in a garden. I've done that a few times. Definitely pretty nice. But at the other end of the scale it gets a bit closer to the bone, and in my opinion this is where we need to be to gain any understanding at all.