Meteorite iron?

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, love is only real when it recognises deficiencies and accepts them.

So true...though i am not sure that i recognize the lack of meteoric material in any particular keris as a deficiency.

[A. G. Maisey]

In a physical sense, of course it is not, David, but in the sense of an additional attribute, most especially for Jean's dreamers, and for salesmen, it may be a severe deficiency.

[Jean]

Hello Alan,
Sorry if this subject was raised earlier in the forum but some members of the Solo kris circles claim that meteorite iron was used for making pamor blades besides the Prambanan meteore. From memory they identify it from the prickly touch, look, and "resonance" for those able to feel it.
These 2 blades are examples of what they identify as made from meteoric pamor, what do you think?
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, it is a widely held belief that pamor made from meteorite does have a very slightly prickly feel to it. The two blades that I have been involved in making that definitely contain meteorite do have a very faint prickly feel. Another blade that I have which is attributable to Jayasukadgo also has a very faint prickly feel. Jayasukadgo was a Surakarta empu during the era when Surakarta empus did sometimes use meteoritic material.

However --- over the years I have handled other blades that have very little possibility of containing meteorite, and these have also had a very slight prickly feel.

"Resonance" ?

Yeah, right. For those who believe.

The "look" of the blade?

Here is a pic of a blade that very definitely has pamor made from meteorite.

Does it have some sort of distinctive look that jumps out at you and screams "METEOR!!!" ?

Jean, I've been exposed to these beliefs for a very long time. If somebody believes that he can identify meteor by look, touch, feel, or because it whispers to him when he's asleep, who am I to argue with him?

In my experience the claim that a blade contains meteoritic material begins with the way it looks:- if it has pamor material that is a little bit out of the ordinary and cannot be easily identified, then this is a sign that it is probably meteor --- for those who believe.

Then the "testing" begins, the feeling of the blade with eyes turned skywards or slightly closed, the deep concentration, the announcement that it feels slightly prickly.

Somebody else who is present will feel the blade and confirm the prickly feel --- would they dare not to? This is Jawa don't forget. Avoid conflict and disagreement at all times.

Then the edge of the blade will be flicked with a fingernail and it doesn't matter what sound it makes, this will be a sure sign that it is meteoritic pamor.

It must be very clearly understood that virtually all keris knowledge as it is today is in fact a belief system, or a network of belief systems. This knowledge is based in societal and cultural beliefs and mores and has very little to do with reality.

If we are to understand the keris, we must understand these beliefs and when the occasion calls for it we must not challenge these beliefs --- apart from being a waste of time this would also be impolite.

But the acceptance of the belief, when this is called for, need not divert us from reality. We just don't speak of reality when belief is the order of the day.

Belief (and good manners):-
if a Javanese gentleman assures you that a particular blade is made from meteoritic material, accept his assertion, declare that it feels prickly and compliment him on his prize possession.

Reality:-
which meteors were used to produce the blades that contain meteoritic material?
where is the record in the old literature of meteor falls?
where, prior to the late 18th century, is there mention or inference in the literature that keris contained meteoritic material?

No answers?

Totally unimportant. Belief and reality never were very comfortable bed-fellows.

[Jean]

Thank you Alan for your informative and wise reply!

[Seerp Visser]

Aside from the good explanation of Alain, i can only add a little comment.

The meteoritic iron of the Prambanan meteorite was very expensive. Dr. Groneman mentions 10 guilders N.I. for about 30 grams.
Further he mentions that it was difficult to obtain and it took the empu Karja di Krama a long time to get it.

Karja di Krama forged the kris for Dr. Groneman for an amount of 40 guilders N.I.

According to Dr. Groneman an everage of about 200 grams pamor material was added to a kris. In the case this should have been all meteoritic iron there should be for about 60 guilders meteoritic iron in a kris of 40 guilders.

So to my opinion, apart from the fact that it is very rare that meteoritic iron was used, the amount of meteoritic iron in an old kris is very small.
It was folded in a piece of other pamor material before welding it in the blade.

So, i think, it will be very difficult too, to feel a difference on the surface of the blade, caused by the meteoritic iron.

I hope there will be a kris in the future where it is proved by analyzing, that meteoritic iron is present. Then, if the blade is still in good condition, we might be able to feel differences in material caused by the meteoritic iron and describe them.

[David]

Originally Posted by Seerp Visser

I hope there will be a kris in the future where it is proved by analyzing, that meteoritic iron is present. Then, if the blade is still in good condition, we might be able to feel differences in material caused by the meteoritic iron and describe them.

But Seerp, we already have numerous examples of keris that we know actually have meteorite in them as Alan has pointed out. That is because they were made at times when this process was fully recorded. The prickly feel that some describe can also be felt on pamor that very likely does NOT contain meteorite so having such keris to go by seems not to be a very good standard to make a positive judgement.
BTW, you can gone to this site and calculate the value of a guilder in, say, 1900 (or any date). http://www.iisg.nl/hpw/calculate.php
It seems that in 1900 the cost of a single gram of Prambanan meteorite was around $50 if Groneman's records are correct. That seems a bit high by today's standards.
The cost to make the keris is close to $600 by today's value which many would say is quite low for empu level workmanship on a keris.