Strange Yataghan

wolviex · 10th February 2006, 07:53 AM

Jim!
There is one thing I would like to solve to avoid some misunderstanding. I put CHINESE in quotes because this is style which we are matching as such. I'm not quite sure if it was made as "chinese" in 18th century, how far our European ancestors were familiar with so exotic weapons from far far east. Maybe it's just a simple convergence of shapes? So the question is, do we have 18th c. chinese weapons that could be a pattern for these hangers, and were they know in Europe?
Eastern fashion, I thought about, is appearing in yataghan blades, fitted to European hangers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Wolviex! I am drinking a very nice one right now called ZYWIEC 5.6% not bad for lager beer

.

No problem, I could send it to you as priority, but I suppose you're not the only one who likes it and before it reach you some postman will be induced and will drink it

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2006, 12:55 AM

Hi Jeff,
Thank you very much for your courtesy, and I completely agree, further examination hands on and research would provide more conclusive assessment.
I'm not too sure about 'bitters' and am pretty sure here in Texas not many know about them 'bitters'...but around here 'long necks' , especially Lone Star is what its all about!!!

yee hah!!

Hi Michal,
I knew you meant 'Chinese' as a description of the type hilts we had been describing since that suggestion was used in the early posts on this thread.
I think the guard itself was what brought this about as it has profound similarity to the guards well known on many Chinese jian, however the crossguard on our example is clearly very highly stylized.

The extensive trade with the Far East by the 18th century, especially that carried out by the East India Companies of the major powers, brought the commodities as well as considerable material culture to Europe and England.
I think one interesting use of 'Oriental' influence appearing on European swords were the smallswords which have become termed "Tonquinese" as this area, now of course Viet Nam, was thought their original source. In "The Smallsword in England" ( J.D.Aylward, 1945, pp.57,58) the author describes the decoration on these hilts as of black 'shakudo' bronze and that while these thought to have come from the Dutch factory in Tonquin, they were in fact most likely produced in a Dutch factory at Peking c.1710-1750. It is further noted that the Dutch brought Chinese workmen in hilts to Europe who worked in Amsterdam, as well as associated with Solingen (pertaining to the use of the blades of course). It is known that certain Chinese influences expanded to other weapon motif, as certain chinoiserie hilts reflected scenes including distinct Chinese architecture.

I think these influences would have easily extended throughout Europe via the constant trade diffusion of blades via Solingen, and other key centers.
It seems I have seen examples of certain Chinese swords or heavily influenced examples of them even in Transylvanian armouries, but cannot recall exactly when these were discussed (Radu any help on this? ).

It seems the more I learn about the incredibly vast trade networks, the more I realize what a small world it really was, even then!

Thanks again for the beautiful examples you posted of these distinctly influenced hangers!!

All the best,
Jim

Valjhun · 12th February 2006, 06:04 PM

Gentlemen,

Many thanks to all of you for that interesting debate. I learned a lot from it and I've decided not to buy that sword.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

11th February 2006, 12:55 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Jeff, Thank you very much for your courtesy, and I completely agree, further examination hands on and research would provide more conclusive assessment. I'm not too sure about 'bitters' and am pretty sure here in Texas not many know about them 'bitters'...but around here 'long necks' , especially Lone Star is what its all about!!! yee hah!! Hi Michal, I knew you meant 'Chinese' as a description of the type hilts we had been describing since that suggestion was used in the early posts on this thread. I think the guard itself was what brought this about as it has profound similarity to the guards well known on many Chinese jian, however the crossguard on our example is clearly very highly stylized. The extensive trade with the Far East by the 18th century, especially that carried out by the East India Companies of the major powers, brought the commodities as well as considerable material culture to Europe and England. I think one interesting use of 'Oriental' influence appearing on European swords were the smallswords which have become termed "Tonquinese" as this area, now of course Viet Nam, was thought their original source. In "The Smallsword in England" ( J.D.Aylward, 1945, pp.57,58) the author describes the decoration on these hilts as of black 'shakudo' bronze and that while these thought to have come from the Dutch factory in Tonquin, they were in fact most likely produced in a Dutch factory at Peking c.1710-1750. It is further noted that the Dutch brought Chinese workmen in hilts to Europe who worked in Amsterdam, as well as associated with Solingen (pertaining to the use of the blades of course). It is known that certain Chinese influences expanded to other weapon motif, as certain chinoiserie hilts reflected scenes including distinct Chinese architecture. I think these influences would have easily extended throughout Europe via the constant trade diffusion of blades via Solingen, and other key centers. It seems I have seen examples of certain Chinese swords or heavily influenced examples of them even in Transylvanian armouries, but cannot recall exactly when these were discussed (Radu any help on this? ). It seems the more I learn about the incredibly vast trade networks, the more I realize what a small world it really was, even then! Thanks again for the beautiful examples you posted of these distinctly influenced hangers!! All the best, Jim

12th February 2006, 06:04 PM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Gentlemen, Many thanks to all of you for that interesting debate. I learned a lot from it and I've decided not to buy that sword.