Pata sword with European blade

[fernando]

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?

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[Jens Nordlunde]

Originally Posted by fernando

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?

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In which way do you mean?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

In which way do you mean?

I mean if you this as being a symbol, a mark or part of an inscription, as to whether it helps to trace the origin of this blade.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Originally Posted by fernando

I mean if you this as being a symbol, a mark or part of an inscription, as to whether it helps to trace the origin of this blade.

I think it could be a Solingen mark, or maybe an Italian one, but I also think it has been made in India. The orb and cross doesn't shake me, as the blade is pattern welded:-).

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I think it could be a Solingen mark, or maybe an Italian one, but I also think it has been made in India. The orb and cross doesn't shake me, as the blade is pattern welded:-).

Pattern welded...
very flexible (namely suited exclusively for a Pata)...

I am convinced this would be a classic example of an Indian made blade attempting to imitate the European ones.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Marius, it is always good when you are convinced - a good feeling:-) - yes, it is from India, and both blades are thin and very flexible.
So once again we can see, that the weapon smiths did copy the European markings, although the Indian blades were as good, or even better, especially for this kind of weapon.
I will bet a bottle of shampoo - or maybe even a beer - that no one can spot the peacocks on the chiselled gauntlet. Unless, of course, that you have studied the art form the 16th and 17th century - but how many did that - hart in the hand?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Marius, it is always good when you are convinced - a good feeling:-) - yes, it is from India, and both blades are thin and very flexible.
So once again we can see, that the weapon smiths did copy the European markings, although the Indian blades were as good, or even better, especially for this kind of weapon.
I will bet a bottle of shampoo - or maybe even a beer - that no one can spot the peacocks on the chiselled gauntlet. Unless, of course, that you have studied the art form the 16th and 17th century - but how many did that - hart in the hand?

A bottle of shampoo!!!????? Forget the beer, get me a Drambuie and I'll bet I will see the peacocks!!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Kubur,
One of the things which makes me say that the blade could be Indian is, that in one of the squares the four petal flower looks like the way they are shown in India, and it could be a Ixora coccinea (Elgood 2004).

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

Pata's are one of my favourite Indian weapons. However, when it comes to the blades they where often battle field pick ups recycled hence usually 17th Century or earlier. Given there length potentially started life as European Riding swords, hand and a half or even two handed swords. All of these have the large straight flat blades often seen on Pata's and Ferangi's, however uncommon on typical eastern blades.

Previous Pata post http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10945

We have four Pata's in our collection and all appear to have European blades. European blades from the 17th Century or earlier are also extremely flexible and whilst some Pata blades may feature eastern designs these could simply have been added latter and may not have been original to the blade when forged.

PATA Circa 1700 (18th Century)
Nationality: Southern India Marathas
Overall Length: 129 cm 50 ¾ “
Blade length: 94 cm 37 “
Blade widest point: 4 cm 1 ½ ”
Hilt widest point: Gauntlet 34.6 cm 13 10/16” long 11.5 cm 4 ½ ”wide

This Pata consists of a combination of a long double-edged blade and a gauntlet. A pair of plain metal settings attaches the blade to the hilt of a gauntlet. These settings run down the face of the blade on both sides. The Iron gauntlet covers the arm almost up to the elbow. The gauntlet has an iron strap attached by hinges that hooks around the arm. The grip is located inside the gauntlet, at a right angle to the blade. The outside of the dark brown gauntlet is decorated with brass and copper metal-work featuring floral and geometric designs.

General Remarks
The pata is a single-handed Indian gauntlet sword. This sword was predominantly found in the southern regions of India. The Marathas invented the Pata, and it was their most favoured weapon. The patta consists of a combination of a long double-edged blade and a gauntlet. The blade is usually European, Italian or Spanish. A pair of metal settings attaches the blade to the hilt of a gauntlet. These settings run down the face of the blade on both sides. The gauntlet covers the arm almost up to the elbow. The gauntlet has an iron strap hinged to the upper end that hooks around the arm. The grip is located inside the gauntlet, at a right angle to the blade.

The inside of the gauntlet is often padded to reinforce the grip and to reduce the shock of blows. The outside of the gauntlet is often covered with metal-worked decorations or embossed. A few were even studded with jewels. Some of the decorations depicted battle scenes. Others had prayers, or pictures of gods or large animals on them.

The patta was used by all military classes, particularly by experienced swordsmen. For one who is inexperienced with the patta it can be difficult to use but it is the most effective of all Indian swords. It is wielded by the strong muscles of the fore and upper arm, and not by the wrist. This allows the sword to deliver more powerful blows and thrusts at any angle. This method also greatly reduces the amount of fatigue, due to the use of the upper arm muscles (Rawson 46).

References:
Pant, G.N. Indian Arms and Armour Volume II. New Delhi, S. Attar Singh Army Educational Stores. 1980. Pgs. 61-68
Rawson, P. S. The Indian Sword. London: Herbert Jenkins 1968. Pgs. 44-47
STONE, George Cameron, A GLOSSARY OF THE CONSTRUCTION, DECORATION & USE OF ARMS & ARMOUR IN ALL COUNTRIES AND IN ALL TIMES Pp 484-486

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

Pata's are one of my favourite Indian weapons. However, when it comes to the blades they where often battle field pick ups recycled hence usually 17th Century or earlier. Given there length potentially started life as European Riding swords, hand and a half or even two handed swords.

We have four Pata's in our collection and all appear to have European blades. European blades from the 17th Century or earlier are also extremely flexible and whilst some Pata blades may feature eastern designs these could simply have been added latter and may not have been original to the blade when forged.

The patta was used by all military classes, particularly by experienced swordsmen. For one who is inexperienced with the patta it can be difficult to use but it is the most effective of all Indian swords. It is wielded by the strong muscles of the fore and upper arm, and not by the wrist. This allows the sword to deliver more powerful blows and thrusts at any angle. This method also greatly reduces the amount of fatigue, due to the use of the upper arm muscles (Rawson 46).

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Hello Cathey and Rex,

Thank you very much for the photos and info you provided!

I found rather confusing you mentioning that 17 century or earlier European sword were very flexible.

From all that I know European swords were exactly the contrary. They were very stiff and heavy as they were designed to deliver powerful blows against heavily armoured oponents. Powerful blows that were not necessarily supposed to cause any cuts but to shatter bones and throw opponents out of balance. Practically none of the European swords I know (and I handled quite a few) had blades flexible enough to be suitable for Patas.

Second, the citation you give from Rawson is very misleading at least.

Patas may have been effective weapons in certain circumstances but they are extremely ineffective in others. For example, Patas are effective fighting multiple enemies wearing no armour in relatively wide open spaces but are very ineffective in crammed battles or against armoured opponents. Moreover, Patas are effective at delivering slashing/whipping blows, but are definitely not effective at thrusting/stabbing as their greater flexibility and length will make them easily bend if they encounter the slightest resistance like chainmail or even bone. Also the whole arm grip, makes the Pata very unsuitable for close combat in crammed spaces because of difficulties in handling the blade.

So, I believe Rawson got his information from anecdotal sources that cannot stand thorough scrutiny, and this would be a good example where flawed information has become to be considered as reference.

It would be interesting to see what others have to say about this subject.

Regards,

Marius

[Jens Nordlunde]

Marius,
I am with you. In another thread long ago it was suggested that the pata could be used as a lance. No it cant. The blade is far too flexible, and should you stab a man with a pata, you are likely to break your arm/shoulder or get the arm ripped off, as you can not let go of a pata as easily as you can with a tulwar.

Jim,
In the article Robert writes in Sultans of the South (pp. 218-233), he discusses the Indian and the European blades, and he ends the article by writing: "The Nomerous weapons of the Deccan reflect this diversity, and it remains difficult at attribute arms to a spacific court or to determine with certainty the origin of many of the firangi blades that are mounted on Indian gilts."
Francois Bernier who stayed in India from 1656 to 1668 writes: "...some Indian craftsmen can imitate European blades that the difference between the original and the copy can hardly be discerned." This quote is also from Robert's article.

Kubur.
You are right that Robert does not show the flower, so I did Google the name, here it is.

[fernando]

I bet you guys are familiar with Elgood's work "Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Cenmturies: Their Manufacture and Influence of European Imports."
I know this is a recurrent approach, but ...
Among the various interesting passages, i would venture this one to be of some opportunity here:

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[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Fernando :-),
Your quote is, of course, from Sultans of the South - goes without saying :-).
Did you also read where it says, that the swords from EAC can not be sold in India, as the quality is too low????
You can find quotes matching most arguments - so why argue, as non of us lived then, and our knowledge comes from books written by someone living, and travelling in India at the time.
We do know, however, from several collections that Indian sword smiths did make both genuine Indian, as well as copies of European blade, of a very high quality.
We now discuss the high quality of the European blades, but I am sure that you will be able to find blades made in Germany of a lower/low quality than the ones from Solingen, and the same goes for the other blade exporting countries.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Fernando,
I am really not sure, as it looks as if on the blade, just under the langet, there is an 'L' - see your detail picture of the blade, post 27. So maybe there is an inscrpition under the langet.
Jens

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Fernando,
I am really not sure, as it looks as if on the blade, just under the langet, there is an 'L' - see your detail picture of the blade, post 27. So maybe there is an inscrpition under the langet.
Jens

While this question was from some time back, isnt this pata Fernando is referring to looks like a dramatically cut down European blade and the 'L' is likely the last letter of the name on the blade. The cross and orb device was usually used in a motif fashion to close a phrase or wording or in cases a name. Looks 17th c.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes Jim, a name could be hidden behind the langet - but we will never find out, as I am not going to take it apart - thempting, but no.


Ok Fernando, I have hakan a pictire of the other side, here it is. It looks as if there is an 'E' just under the langet.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Jens for the great image on this. In seeing these up close it appears these lines, the cross and orb and whatever those letters are have been drawn or inscribed into a kind of simulated fuller. That last letter looks like a lazy 'Y'.
To me this suggests probably an Indian made blade estimating the markings often seen on European ones. The character of the globe and cross is very artistic compared to the European ones, and it seems usually not used as a terminus like this, but appears on its own. I do know of some cases where it does occur like this but usually it is an anchor in this place.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... Ok Fernando, I have hakan a pictire of the other side, here it is. It looks as if there is an 'E' just under the langet.

VIVA EL REY
DE PORTUGAL

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes Jim, a name could be hidden behind the langet - but we will never find out, as I am not going to take it apart - tempting, but no.

I suppose if one had the contacts and resources, X-rays using modern digital detectors to generate images that can then be manipulated on a computer to apply false contrasts or color could disclose what the blade inscription actually says in an entirely non-destructive fashion. Of course, I have a European sword with an earlier medieval blade with what has been assumed in over a hundred years of literature to be the end of a medieval inscription, but I personally suspect it is only initials from the time of remounting and I do not have the contacts to lay that matter to rest. Similarly a couple of unproven possible Ulfberhts also remain in uncertainty. In any case, back on topic, that is one really nice pata!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Fernando,
I am really not sure, as it looks as if on the blade, just under the langet, there is an 'L' - see your detail picture of the blade, post 27. So maybe there is an inscrpition under the langet.
Jens

Jens, if i was an imaginative person, and based on the blade being European, i would venture that the "L" is the last letter of Portugal. And this should take me to ask you if there isn't also a letter emerging from the langet on the other side .

[Helleri]

Just as a matter of curiosity would it be possible to get a picture of the inside of the sleeve?

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by fernando

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?
.

Look in Kinman page 28, orb and cross, Germany middle of 16th c. could be used later...

Originally Posted by fernando

Posts are being pouring in this same subject in both Ethno and European fora, which somehow disperses discussion efforts.
So if you don't mind, Kubur, we will merge both threads into the Ethno section as, despite the origin of your pata blade is in doubt, the subject is Indian swords.

Yes you are right to merge the threads. Thanks

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim, Have a look at Elgood (2004), chapter 13, page 129, note 6 - go to page 295 and read note 6 :-).
The Ixora coccinea can now and then be seen on sword and dagger hilts.

I agree that many European, Persian and blades from other places were used in India, and it is mentioned in many old and newer books.
Many Indian weapon smiths were very skilled and made not only good, but very good blades, which the different museums and private collections show.

Back to Kubur's blade. It could be European, but you have not been able to convince me yet, so I will let the case rest till someone comes up with proof of from where the blade origins.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, Have a look at Elgood (2004), chapter 13, page 129, note 6 - go to page 295 and read note 6 :-).
The Ixora coccinea can now and then be seen on sword and dagger hilts.

I agree that many European, Persian and blades from other places were used in India, and it is mentioned in many old and newer books.
Many Indian weapon smiths were very skilled and made not only good, but very good blades, which the different museums and private collections show.

Back to Kubur's blade. It could be European, but you have not been able to convince me yet, so I will let the case rest till someone comes up with proof of from where the blade origins.

I am pretty sure that for this type of dilemmas we will never have a clear cut answer. In the best case we might get a more likely/probable answer but we can never be sure.

That doesn't meas we should stop trying!

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, Have a look at Elgood (2004), chapter 13, page 129, note 6 - go to page 295 and read note 6 :-).
The Ixora coccinea can now and then be seen on sword and dagger hilts.

I looked at your references, but I can't see any pictures, photos or drawings, that can support your interpretation for the Pata #1.
Please, it doesn't mean that I don't agree with you "in general". I agree, this decoration is common on Indian weapons. And the blade of the Pata #1 can be Indian, I have no problem with that too. I just need material evidences, not a note or an opinion.