Afghan Pulowar blade type?

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 07:58 PM

Thank you for the photos!

Certainly milled with a ball-tipped end-mill! And this type of tool didn't exist in 19th century for sure! 20 century again for sure!

Those grooves couldn't have been made with a chisel. They start with an ample curvature an with a lesser depth because that's when the linear movement of the mill starts and there is most resistance after the initial starting hole, so there is less control over the tool.

Do yo have this blade? Is it elastic like steel should be, or bends easily?

ariel · 21st July 2016, 08:33 PM

Marius,

Many old Afghan blades have grooves exactly like that.
I am at work now, but will check my collection.

Grooves like that were cut with very hard chisels all over the world. The round mark at the beginning of the groove is just a convenient starting point. I agree that the steadiness of hand was not exemplary, but we are not talking Assadullah here, this is a creation of a simple Afghani blacksmith making simple Afghani swords for simple Afghani slashing. Not exquisite, but perfectly sufficient for butchering a feringhi:-)) Thus, there is no doubt in my mind that Eric is absolutely correct: it is a genuinely old blade, 19 century at the latest.

Of course, leather might be newer: scabbards did not survive very long in the field, Russian army regulations specified exchange of scabbards every 3 years. Professional fakers from India and Georgia routinely present artificially-aged leather scabbards: they do not look 1% as convincing as this one. While it is possible to fake the mastique, I certainly would like to know how to do it: it looks awfully old.

My bottom line: 100% genuine, 100% old.

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 08:50 PM

Your arguments appear to hold well, and I trust you guys are more experienced than me (it would be hard not to).

However, you have seen my arguments and explanations from the mechanical point of view. And unless I have another good explanation on how those grooves were made, I will still be convinced it is a recent fake.

The argument there are many blades with grooves like this is not very valid as
1. maybe there aren't that many
2. maybe all that are, are fakes.

Indians started faking weapons since 19th century.

Anyhow it would be quite boring if we all agree... right?!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st July 2016, 09:01 PM

I have a few pictures to compare with the #1 sword...The two swords at the top can be seen sold on https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item...-afghan-swords

In respect of the lower pictures against a black backdrop ~The webpage says at http://honoomasamune.tumblr.com/

Quote" Pulouar Sword

Dated: circa 1676 - 1725
Culture: Indian/Afghan
Medium: steel, gold
Measurements: overall length 97 cm; blade length 83 cm

The Pulouar is an Afghan sword, also used in India, a variant of the Tulwar. It always displays a short guard, curved in the direction of the blade, and a hemispheric pommel without a counter guard. This piece displays a blade in watered steel, curved and with a slight wave in its double edge.

Near the hilt a golden cartouche is desplayed with the following inscription: “Akbar Sha al-Sultan Mirza”. The hilt, also in steel, displays a spherical pommel completely covered in an engraved web motif and geometrical patterns. The hand guard features a delicate swan head on the pommel, also engraved, an inscription with the “Ali”, followed by the sentence “nasr min Allah wa il-fath qrabi.”Unquote.

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I have a few pictures to compare with the #1 sword...the webpage says at http://honoomasamune.tumblr.com/

Quote" Pulouar Sword

Dated: circa 1676 - 1725
Culture: Indian/Afghan
Medium: steel, gold
Measurements: overall length 97 cm; blade length 83 cm

The Pulouar is an Afghan sword, also used in India, a variant of the Tulwar. It always displays a short guard, curved in the direction of the blade, and a hemispheric pommel without a counter guard. This piece displays a blade in watered steel, curved and with a slight wave in its double edge.

Near the hilt a golden cartouche is desplayed with the following inscription: “Akbar Sha al-Sultan Mirza”. The hilt, also in steel, displays a spherical pommel completely covered in an engraved web motif and geometrical patterns. The hand guard features a delicate swan head on the pommel, also engraved, an inscription with the “Ali”, followed by the sentence “nasr min Allah wa il-fath qrabi.”Unquote.

Thank you very much... again for the photos!
Mine is definitely much younger. Maybe 19th century...

Bob A · 21st July 2016, 11:48 PM

Ibrahiim al Balooshi, thank you for the link to the Caravana collection. I have yet to explore it in any depth, but even a cursory scan is enough to appreciate its value. Breathtaking stuff, the existence of which amazes and confounds.

Much appreciated.

ariel · 22nd July 2016, 01:08 AM

Here is one of my pulouars.
The other one is wootz, but the blade is flat, with no grooves.

21st July 2016, 09:01 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I have a few pictures to compare with the #1 sword...The two swords at the top can be seen sold on https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item...-afghan-swords In respect of the lower pictures against a black backdrop ~The webpage says at http://honoomasamune.tumblr.com/ Quote" Pulouar Sword Dated: circa 1676 - 1725 Culture: Indian/Afghan Medium: steel, gold Measurements: overall length 97 cm; blade length 83 cm The Pulouar is an Afghan sword, also used in India, a variant of the Tulwar. It always displays a short guard, curved in the direction of the blade, and a hemispheric pommel without a counter guard. This piece displays a blade in watered steel, curved and with a slight wave in its double edge. Near the hilt a golden cartouche is desplayed with the following inscription: “Akbar Sha al-Sultan Mirza”. The hilt, also in steel, displays a spherical pommel completely covered in an engraved web motif and geometrical patterns. The hand guard features a delicate swan head on the pommel, also engraved, an inscription with the “Ali”, followed by the sentence “nasr min Allah wa il-fath qrabi.”Unquote. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 21st July 2016 at 09:16 PM.

22nd July 2016, 01:08 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here is one of my pulouars. The other one is wootz, but the blade is flat, with no grooves. Attached Images

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21st July 2016, 07:58 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,918	Thank you for the photos! Certainly milled with a ball-tipped end-mill! And this type of tool didn't exist in 19th century for sure! 20 century again for sure! Those grooves couldn't have been made with a chisel. They start with an ample curvature an with a lesser depth because that's when the linear movement of the mill starts and there is most resistance after the initial starting hole, so there is less control over the tool. Do yo have this blade? Is it elastic like steel should be, or bends easily? Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st July 2016 at 08:11 PM.

21st July 2016, 08:33 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marius, Many old Afghan blades have grooves exactly like that. I am at work now, but will check my collection. Grooves like that were cut with very hard chisels all over the world. The round mark at the beginning of the groove is just a convenient starting point. I agree that the steadiness of hand was not exemplary, but we are not talking Assadullah here, this is a creation of a simple Afghani blacksmith making simple Afghani swords for simple Afghani slashing. Not exquisite, but perfectly sufficient for butchering a feringhi:-)) Thus, there is no doubt in my mind that Eric is absolutely correct: it is a genuinely old blade, 19 century at the latest. Of course, leather might be newer: scabbards did not survive very long in the field, Russian army regulations specified exchange of scabbards every 3 years. Professional fakers from India and Georgia routinely present artificially-aged leather scabbards: they do not look 1% as convincing as this one. While it is possible to fake the mastique, I certainly would like to know how to do it: it looks awfully old. My bottom line: 100% genuine, 100% old.

21st July 2016, 08:50 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,918	Your arguments appear to hold well, and I trust you guys are more experienced than me (it would be hard not to). However, you have seen my arguments and explanations from the mechanical point of view. And unless I have another good explanation on how those grooves were made, I will still be convinced it is a recent fake. The argument there are many blades with grooves like this is not very valid as 1. maybe there aren't that many 2. maybe all that are, are fakes. Indians started faking weapons since 19th century. Anyhow it would be quite boring if we all agree... right?!

21st July 2016, 11:48 PM	#6
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 468	Ibrahiim al Balooshi, thank you for the link to the Caravana collection. I have yet to explore it in any depth, but even a cursory scan is enough to appreciate its value. Breathtaking stuff, the existence of which amazes and confounds. Much appreciated.