Indian pseudoshashka

[Jim McDougall]

I have to say these are wonderful panoplies of this spectrum of amazing and exotic sword examples!
In reading through these discussions, I think it is important to remember that the word 'shashka' is simply a Russian word for sword, not otherwise specified, much in the way that the words tulwar in India; kilij in Turkey; and sa'if in Arabic are.
While these terms have become associated with specific forms in the glossaries of collectors, their use can often create semantics issues in narratives and discussions.

I would note here that while the feature known as tunkou, or the collar or sleeve at blade root of many edged weapons in Turkey, China and Central Asia is interesting as a key feature reflecting distinct influences between cultures, it is subordinate to trying to find connections with these curious sabres with knuckle guard and no other supporting cross guard.

As far as I have known, the 'tunkou' seems to have evolved in Altaic regions with nomadic steppes tribes sometime in the span of 6th-12th centuries. It seems most known exemplars are from 9th-10th ("Arms of the Yenesai Khirghiz 6-12th C", Y.S.Khudyakov, 1980, as cited in "The Mongol Warlords", David Nicolle, 1988).
In these cases these sleeves or collars were placed on the blade edge near the hilt, and according to Nicolle as others, typically are regarded as to offer more secure fit in scabbard. In other respects, it is thought to function as a sort of Indian ricasso to protect finger if over guard or perhaps drawing sword from scabbard.

It is interesting that this feature took a different placement with the Turkish application, being on the back of the blade and diagonally across seemingly as a seating for the crossguard and again to secure the hilt in scabbard.
On the Chinese examples by the 17th century, this feature again is seen.
Later it would seem that the feature became vestigially represented in koftgari on various weapons.

In "Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350" , David Nicolle, 1988, in example 37 A-D it is noted that asymmetrical guards occur on both edge and back of blade in swords of 9th-13th c. in regions of Kursk and Kiev in Ukraine. It is mentioned that such guards are seen in art of Afghan and Indian regions in depictions of arms.

It would seem that the influences of the arms of these various cultures and ethnic groups are profoundly confluenced over many centuries which would make specific or definitive assertions connecting these difficult at best.

With the curious examples of this thread with pistol grip, knuckle guard with recurved terminal at pommel and tunkou, it does seem they comprise a certain group of similar form. It seems there have been sabres of either shamshir or other sabre forms with the guard notably absent in Ottoman and sometimes it seems East European or 'Cossack' context, I believe Zaparozhian.

Given these possibilities, it seems to lend more compelling look toward Afghanistan and India's northern regions, further owing to the Central Asian and Russian denominators mentioned.

The recurve on the knuckle guard terminals of many northern Indian swords is often regarded as having been from Ottoman influence, just as the quillon terminals on many tulwars. The pistol grip form seems Ottoman as well.
To consider the open form of the shashka hilt, the Ottoman recurve on the guard and the Turkic tunkou of Central Asia to me seems a compelling confluence of features suggesting North India and Afghan regions for these sabres.

The images are an excavated sabre blade believed 9th century from Nishapur regions and the other an Altaic (S. Siberia) sabre of 10thc.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]I have to say these are wonderful panoplies of this spectrum of amazing and exotic sword examples!
In reading through these discussions, I think it is important to remember that the word 'shashka' is simply a Russian word for sword, not otherwise specified, much in the way that the words tulwar in India; kilij in Turkey; and sa'if in Arabic are.
While these terms have become associated with specific forms in the glossaries of collectors, their use can often create semantics issues in narratives and discussions.

I would note here that while the feature known as tunkou, or the collar or sleeve at blade root of many edged weapons in Turkey, China and Central Asia is interesting as a key feature reflecting distinct influences between cultures, it is subordinate to trying to find connections with these curious sabres with knuckle guard and no other supporting cross guard.

As far as I have known, the 'tunkou' seems to have evolved in Altaic regions with nomadic steppes tribes sometime in the span of 6th-12th centuries. It seems most known exemplars are from 9th-10th ("Arms of the Yenesai Khirghiz 6-12th C", Y.S.Khudyakov, 1980, as cited in "The Mongol Warlords", David Nicolle, 1988).
In these cases these sleeves or collars were placed on the blade edge near the hilt, and according to Nicolle as others, typically are regarded as to offer more secure fit in scabbard. In other respects, it is thought to function as a sort of Indian ricasso to protect finger if over guard or perhaps drawing sword from scabbard.

It is interesting that this feature took a different placement with the Turkish application, being on the back of the blade and diagonally across seemingly as a seating for the crossguard and again to secure the hilt in scabbard.
On the Chinese examples by the 17th century, this feature again is seen.
Later it would seem that the feature became vestigially represented in koftgari on various weapons.

In "Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350" , David Nicolle, 1988, in example 37 A-D it is noted that asymmetrical guards occur on both edge and back of blade in swords of 9th-13th c. in regions of Kursk and Kiev in Ukraine. It is mentioned that such guards are seen in art of Afghan and Indian regions in depictions of arms.

It would seem that the influences of the arms of these various cultures and ethnic groups are profoundly confluenced over many centuries which would make specific or definitive assertions connecting these difficult at best.

With the curious examples of this thread with pistol grip, knuckle guard with recurved terminal at pommel and tunkou, it does seem they comprise a certain group of similar form. It seems there have been sabres of either shamshir or other sabre forms with the guard notably absent in Ottoman and sometimes it seems East European or 'Cossack' context, I believe Zaparozhian.

Given these possibilities, it seems to lend more compelling look toward Afghanistan and India's northern regions, further owing to the Central Asian and Russian denominators mentioned.

The recurve on the knuckle guard terminals of many northern Indian swords is often regarded as having been from Ottoman influence, just as the quillon terminals on many tulwars. The pistol grip form seems Ottoman as well.
To consider the open form of the shashka hilt, the Ottoman recurve on the guard and the Turkic tunkou of Central Asia to me seems a compelling confluence of features suggesting North India and Afghan regions for these sabres.

The images are an excavated sabre blade believed 9th century from Nishapur regions and the other an Altaic (S. Siberia) sabre of 10thc.[/QUOTE

Thank you very much Jim and your explanation of Tunkou is appreciated. I see a different way of engineering the knuckle guard in both examples below perhaps indicative of different regional methods of engineering the hilt/guard/Tunkou.

I thought when observing the references that it would be a good idea to have the Tunkou on the cutting edge "Chinese style" rather than the back blade since mounted it would act as a more secure fit and the safety factor of drawing swords at the gallop with a protective Tunkou would indeed save cut fingers (see red hilt Chinese sword below). Having the Tunkou on the cutting edge is probably the reason it is reversed so that more blade is covered..

I must say the knuckle guard is indeed difficult to source...as so many Indian weapons have it whilst other weapons in the same family do not...Tulvar springs to mind...I also assumed therefor that attaching a knuckle guard would be relatively easy though I puzzled at the lack of Shashka with knuckle guards ...

It seemed to me that we were looking at just that... A shashka form with knuckle guard and Tunkou.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all...I wonder what Forum makes of this? ...Said to be from Afghanistan...? Are we looking at Turko/Mongolian mounted cavalry aspects... with the Tunkou and Knuckle Guard...?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It would seem logical in considering the bolstered throat arrangement that hurtling along at great speed on horseback some danger to the rider would be encountered on drawing or placing the sword back in the scabbard...to the hand and fingers. It may be why the design of the Tunkou appears on daggers...in Koftgari only (not the full Tunkou form) since the Warrior would almost never draw a dagger on horseback ... but would certainly draw the sword pictured above. Actually when imagining the draw; it is the thumb which assists the backblade out of the scabbard and of course the hand.

Secondly and I favour this;...the sword would fit much more tightly in the scabbard with this bolstering ...Thus the Tunkou as noted earlier has a dual purpose.

[kai]

Hello Ibrahiim,

It would seem logical in considering the bolstered throat arrangement that hurtling along at great speed on horseback some danger to the rider would be encountered on drawing or placing the sword back in the scabbard...to the hand and fingers. It may be why the design of the Tunkou appears on daggers...in Koftgari only (not the full Tunkou form) since the Warrior would almost never draw a dagger on horseback ... but would certainly draw the sword pictured above. Actually when imagining the draw; it is the thumb which assists the backblade out of the scabbard and of course the hand.

I don't see how this would assist the draw. (BTW, the thumb or rather the whole hand would be in a glove, at least in war time.)

Short of very unfavourable circumstances, one would expect the blade to be cleaned before it being returned into the scabbard...

Secondly and I favour this;...the sword would fit much more tightly in the scabbard with this bolstering ...Thus the Tunkou as noted earlier has a dual purpose.

This seems to be more of an issue of workmanship (regarding the scabbard) to me. The vast majority of cavalry swords never had this feature (or functionally similar ones).

Regards,
Kai

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim,
The horsehead (in India termed 'hayamukhi') is a popular motif, it seems most often found on dagger hilts from Jaipur and Rajasthan (Pant,1980, C, CCXXIII, CCI ). While Rajput favor would be presumed, this form was also known to be used by Mughals in richly carved jade, nephrite and crystal.
A full length sword with horsehead hilt and ganga yumuni (chevron) blade is also found dated 1750 from Jaipur.

It seems that the crossing of well known dagger form hilts and longer or full length sword blades is not unusual, in fact the lighter profile of this hilt with the knuckleguard brings to mind the Indian bichwa and chilanum.

The presence of the tunkou on this is notable, and would seem indeed to recall Central Asian and perhaps Ottoman influence. We have seen that the tunkou feature is well diffused through Turkic spheres, it is not as commonly seen in this style in Afghanistan and India, though similar koftgari applications are of course known.

The tunkou it seems according to scholars such as David Nicolle and Philip Tom, was indeed most likely intended for securing the sword in its scabbard. In the case of numbers of Chinese sword and others with the feature on the edge rather than back near the guard, it is presumed to have acted as an added ricasso for finger protection.

In most cases, swords without the tunkou seem to rely on the langet for placement and securing the sword in its scabbard.

This particular horsehead sword does seem to resemble those bring discussed with knuckleguard and recurved terminal as well as tunkou, and I would be inclined to agree with North India, Afghan regions.

[kai]

Hello Jim,

Thanks a lot for bearing with us and your additional thoughts!

The presence of the tunkou on this is notable, and would seem indeed to recall Central Asian and perhaps Ottoman influence. We have seen that the tunkou feature is well diffused through Turkic spheres, it is not as commonly seen in this style in Afghanistan and India, though similar koftgari applications are of course known.

BTW, is there any scholarly study linking the koftgari with the real tunkou-like elements?

The tunkou it seems according to scholars such as David Nicolle and Philip Tom, was indeed most likely intended for securing the sword in its scabbard. In the case of numbers of Chinese sword and others with the feature on the edge rather than back near the guard, it is presumed to have acted as an added ricasso for finger protection.

I agree that this may be the reason for the original and later Chinese take on this (with the main element along the cutting edge). The ricasso of Indian blades will pretty much fulfil the same functions though.

I can also see that thickening the blade along the edge may help to make an easier fitting scabbard and, especially, help avoiding wear from heavy use.

However, I don't see any advantage for scabbard construction if pretty much only the back of the sword blade is thickened. For wootz blades as in the other thread this feature certainly is important to securely attach the hilt (short of functional alternatives found in Indian swords).

In most cases, swords without the tunkou seem to rely on the langet for placement and securing the sword in its scabbard.

The langet is certainly another good approach. However, a global comparison shows the majority of swords without any dedicated "locking" mechanism and good workmanship seems to go a long way in crafting scabbards with excellent fit and secure carrying/wear as well as nice draw characteristics.

Regards,
Kai

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim,
The horsehead (in India termed 'hayamukhi') is a popular motif, it seems most often found on dagger hilts from Jaipur and Rajasthan (Pant,1980, C, CCXXIII, CCI ). While Rajput favor would be presumed, this form was also known to be used by Mughals in richly carved jade, nephrite and crystal.
A full length sword with horsehead hilt and ganga yumuni (chevron) blade is also found dated 1750 from Jaipur.

It seems that the crossing of well known dagger form hilts and longer or full length sword blades is not unusual, in fact the lighter profile of this hilt with the knuckleguard brings to mind the Indian bichwa and chilanum.

The presence of the tunkou on this is notable, and would seem indeed to recall Central Asian and perhaps Ottoman influence. We have seen that the tunkou feature is well diffused through Turkic spheres, it is not as commonly seen in this style in Afghanistan and India, though similar koftgari applications are of course known.

The tunkou it seems according to scholars such as David Nicolle and Philip Tom, was indeed most likely intended for securing the sword in its scabbard. In the case of numbers of Chinese sword and others with the feature on the edge rather than back near the guard, it is presumed to have acted as an added ricasso for finger protection.

In most cases, swords without the tunkou seem to rely on the langet for placement and securing the sword in its scabbard.

This particular horsehead sword does seem to resemble those bring discussed with knuckleguard and recurved terminal as well as tunkou, and I would be inclined to agree with North India, Afghan regions.

Salaams Jim and thank you for the summary...It is interesting that the blades so far shown before the horses head were short or shorter than a cavalry weapon though no evidence exists that they were shortened blades...The Horses head or 'hayamukhi' which means horses face in Sanskrit...is certainly a long cavalry blade..and is possibly an inch or two shorter at the tip seemingly through wear.

What is remarkable about the hayamukhi is that all pointers seem to tick the box of "cavalry"... The Tunkou, the blade length, the knuckle guard, and of course the horses head itself...all characteristics of a cavalry weapon.

It may be early days yet to distinguish which area or areas this weapon was used in... and in what capacity. I suspect for India that the Mughal court style of shorter blade and ornate Neophrite / Crystal or other highly bling hilt form is possible especially as Jehangir was an avid hilt designer. The advent of a fighting weapon could easily be attributed to the warrior class or Rajput whilst continued reference to Afghanistan for these swords cannot be ignored.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kai]

Hello Ibrahiim,

Thanks, that's a good find! Link?

Said to be from Afghanistan...? Are we looking at Turko/Mongolian mounted cavalry aspects... with the Tunkou and Knuckle Guard...?

The 2 examples from the other thread are too short to be cavalry swords.

Regards,
Kai