Markings on a Takouba-mounted European Backsword

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Good call to cross post this here Blue Lander! I honestly don't think a lot of the guys on the Ethnographic side read or post over here as they do not see the connection between these fields. The very reason we did start this forum is because of the profound connections between European weapons/blades and ethnographic.
Ironically, one obvious reason for Briggs' outstanding work on European blade markings (JAAS, 1965) is because of their presence in Saharan takouba.

First inclinations on this blade is probably Italian, 18th century schiavona blade, in any case certainly European and of that vintage. This is a most interesting marriage of backsword blade to takouba, as obviously the standard was broadsword blades. However, many takouba were mounted in later incarnations with very old blades, which sometimes were military backswords etc.
I have seen 19th century blades even by Mole in some, which is uncommon to see English blades in takouba.

It seems also that native artisans have sometimes tried to duplicate European lettering in blades acquired, one with awkwardly applied letters seemed to attempt approximating ANDREA (Ferrara) but it is hard to tell as the 'A's are all really discernible.
This inscription seems to have a '2' then some letters which could be 'A's (?) and the backwards 'N's are temptingly like Cyrillic letter. However that seems wildly out of context.

It seems I have seen a mix of numeral and disconnected letters on a blade in Arabian context seemingly replicating European marks, and numbers of these Italian blades may have entered North African trade routes during their colonial activities in Sudan and Ethiopia end of 19th into pre WWII.

I hope someone out there can either recognize this or place a more tangible explanation beyond these speculations

Jim there appear to be two A in Majescule gothic style..with a few letters between them and an unusual 2 at the front. This coincides roughly with the sword letters format at Odd Sword which makes me think they could be from the same region/related.

I have to say that an awful lot of stuff has been left somewhat stranded on the other forum including very important posts from members ...I don't disagree with posting on European ...quite the reverse... but would it not be better having the whole thread please?

[fernando]

An unsupported theory would be that, there is no cyrillic involved here. The mirror atitude of the N could just be the smith's fantasy ... or illiteracy.
Reading the lettering straight forward, we would have ANCONA which is the name, for one, of a city and province in center Italy, somehow related with Roman era history, ancient weapon archeology and the like.
Would there be swordmaking over there during the age of the blade in discussion ?
... Notwithstanding this is a silly approach .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

An unsupported theory would be that, there is no cyrillic involved here. The mirror atitude of the N could just be the smith's fantasy ... or illiteracy.
Reading the lettering straight forward, we would have ANCONA which is the name, for one, of a city and province in center Italy, somehow related with Roman era history, ancient weapon archeology and the like.
Would there be swordmaking over there during the age of the blade in discussion ?
... Notwithstanding this is a silly approach .

Silly?
Silly is the editorial page on artwork now reaching classic proportion on the other forum!
There are a number of approaches to analysis of markings, and while your observation using Occams Razor is quite viable, sometimes things are not what they seem.

[blue lander]

This is the only other marking on the blade. Two triangles of three dots. If there was anything written between them it was already eaten by corrosion. They're right after the ricasso and right before the writing.

[fernando]

It looks like the symbol interpreted by some as a "2" could be a "Z", which would make the inscription be ZANCONA, another city in Tuscana Italy.
Surprizingly (or not) blue lander was aware of the "Z" letter assumption, although he has quoted the seller description in the Ethno forum thread as being ZACONA, whereas this (seller) has described it as ZANCONA.
Things getting a bit mixed up .

[blue lander]

The seller's description of the blade was "ZACONA TOSCANIA" but I don't see toscania written anywhere on the blade. I don't know where he got that from.

[fernando]

No mistery; he has certainly seen in the web, or already knew it himself, that ZANCONA is in Toscania. Joining both names in the announcement was merely a seller trick, i would say .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... I have to say that an awful lot of stuff has been left somewhat stranded on the other forum including very important posts from members ...I don't disagree with posting on European ...quite the reverse... but would it not be better having the whole thread please?

Merging threads is an easy thing when both were started in the same forum; not so linear when each one is located in different forum sections, as one will vanish to the eyes of members who posted there. As eventually the item in discussion has both Ethno and European roots, there is the option to chose in which forum merged threads will be placed.
Perhaps is best that the threads author agrees with this merging. What do you say, blue lander ?

... and by the way, this merging exercises are not so often done; i hope this one works properly

[blue lander]

Yup, I agree one thread makes more sense

[fernando]

Done.