Kaskara with interesting marks

DaveS · 29th April 2016, 04:51 AM

Picked this kaskara up at the Eugene Knife Show a couple of weeks ago. It has some marks i haven't seen before. The blade is 34 inches long, 39 inches overall. This kaskara seems to have a little more age to it than some of the others that i have. No concrete evidence for this, just a feeling and could be wrong. I can't tell if the markings have been etched or forged in while the blade was hot. It looks like Roman numerals have been put down the center of the three fullers. Talismanic ??????. Has anyone seen these stamps before? I don't think this is a european blade, but then sometimes it can be hard to tell. Any thoughts would be appreciated.............Dave.

Jim McDougall · 29th April 2016, 05:55 AM

Dave,
this kaskara is most interesting and I recognized those markings as from discussions long ago, in fact I finally found information from June, 2005 .
In that discussion, everyone was pretty bewildered by these unusual markings, but 'Roanoa' who has long been our 'go to' guy on Ethiopian weapons had the answer.
He claims kaskaras with this motif were from Eritrea.

In other research over the years it seems that it has been suggested that the head on these may represent King Johannes IV of Ethiopia, who fought against incursions from the Italians, as well as the Mahdists. He was killed by them at the Battle of Gallabat March 10, 1889, and later his body was captured by Mahdist forces. The corpse was beheaded and the head taken to Omdurman as a trophy.
The curious 'numerals' or characters may represent Amharic in stylized form (they look nothing like it really), but neither of these ideas are overly compelling.
The lion represents interpretation of the Ethiopian Lion of Judah.

It does seem that several of these are known, one was a blade alone.
In any case the possibility remains Eritrean and probably end 19th early 20th c.

Jim McDougall · 6th May 2016, 06:21 AM

Always glad to be of help.

Battara · 6th May 2016, 03:48 PM

I may be wrong, but the script does not look Amhamric to me to be Ethopian. Could they be talismanic?

Jim McDougall · 6th May 2016, 05:34 PM

Hi Jose,
Thank you so much for the support. It is always disappointing when a query is posted and from nearly two hundred views, there is not a single response beyond my entry last week. This is a most curious blade, as I noted, and as it is pretty obscure among most kaskara data, it took me quite a long time through old notes to find clues.

This most interesting motif in the fullers appears to be a linear approach to certain stylized impressions of what may have been the stamped cartouche of Mashin Khana in Kabul in the 1890s. By about 1900 this was also in a round cartouche, and these are often so degenerated or worn the most prominent features are the lines in the device.

I have seen a knife of unclear origin (but likely Nepali or regions in Northern Bengal) with three of these squares and another kaskara with a single square cartouche with this type of image, but no illustrations at hand, just my notes.

I know there are guys out there who collect kaskara and this as I have noted probably goes to Ethiopia and Eritrea. I once had a friend from Eritrea who was Beja, and knew kaskara well (they never heard that term) and shared a video of tribal dances using them (the sa'if broadsword)

I know this is not Amharic, nor any particular script as these are simply linear repeated characters which are just lines in X's and I's . Thus, I would doubt talismanic unless there is some numerical order, and more likely to be a stylized 'impression' of the Amharic or other script.
With the singular instances (and triple on the knife) it is hard to say what these mean,

Perhaps one day someone out there might recognize these markings ( lately I have seen threads come up from nearly a decade ago!).

Thanks again Jose, very much appreciated .

Battara · 7th May 2016, 12:07 AM

I guess I was wondering if the numbers might be talismanic. In some cultures, certain numbers carry more meaning than they do here in the US.

Another thought is that they might be made to look like talismanic numbers, but might just be gibberish. Seen a lot of these too.......

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2016, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I guess I was wondering if the numbers might be talismanic. In some cultures, certain numbers carry more meaning than they do here in the US.

Another thought is that they might be made to look like talismanic numbers, but might just be gibberish. Seen a lot of these too.......

Very true, there are many possibilities, and it seems like they went to a great deal of trouble to exaggerate these characters which seem like Roman numerals. Whenever these kinds of embellishments show up in this manner on blades, they may be gibberish to most, but to some there may have been some arcane meaning.

colin henshaw · 7th May 2016, 08:30 AM

My guess is that these impressions have no particular meaning, though possibly they were inspired by having seen Roman numerals, perhaps on a European clock for instance. Their production would only require two or three simple metal punches.

I have noticed similar phenomena on Oceanic wooden clubs, which have incised on them a meaningless jumble of letters, probably copied from a book or newspaper.

But an interesting sword, nonetheless.

Kubur · 7th May 2016, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

My guess is that these impressions have no particular meaning, though possibly they were inspired by having seen Roman numerals, perhaps on a European clock for instance. Their production would only require two or three simple metal punches.

Hi
I think that you are right.
These inscriptions have no meaning. But they are clearly copies of axumite script (not far from Roman)...Definitively Ethiopian...

Kubur · 7th May 2016, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi
I think that you are right.
These inscriptions have no meaning. But they are clearly copies of axumite script (not far from Roman)...Definitively Ethiopian...

It's better with the pictures...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th May 2016, 07:38 PM

Salaams All, I have to say that this is a most interesting set of blade marks but where is the originator? There are many excellent additions to this thread but zero response. People are more than willing to research and add their notes but it really is a two way street and if thread authors don't respond it is somewhat a poor show in this regard.

That said; I have the notion that Jims attribution is spot on and support that with the following item... That of Johannes the 4th in the 19thC and the accolade amongst his followers that he was in fact looked upon as The Lion of Judea.

Type into search Johannes the 4th of Ethiopia or see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yohannes_IV
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2016, 09:31 PM

Thank you very much for these interesting views, and I think Kubur may have a point in degree with the suggestion of the Axumite characters which are indeed like Roman numerals in a number of instances among them.

Ibrahiim, I think your zero response note are refers to the odd lack of response by the thread originator, which while curious, does seem to happen on many occasions.
I always hope for the best, and that they have simply forgotten about the post or perhaps computer issues or travelling might preclude their response.

In any case, I am glad to have this blade posted, as it has been years since one like it was discussed, so good to have opportunity for new insights.

I really appreciate the great images, and the note on this Ethiopian king being referred to as the Lion of Judah. I have the impression these blades are commemorative rather than talismanic and celebrate this king who was killed in battle against Mahdist forces.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th May 2016, 06:54 PM

Salaams all..before I forget there is this excellent article on our own pages at

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/kaskara/

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Edster · 10th May 2016, 03:23 AM

As previous respondents have observed the inscription is not Amharic script and appears to be a repetition of the Roman numerals for 12. The original owner had the artisan go to considerable effort to inscribe the XII motif. It apparently reflected considerable meaning to him.

As Ethiopia is a Christian nation with Jewish elements, I suggest that this is Hebrew and/or Christian numerology. The attached link discusses the significance of the number 12. Other searches will reveal Ethiopian numerology context.
http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/m...-bible/12.html

Best,
Ed

DaveS · 10th May 2016, 03:40 AM

Jim: Sorry for not responding sooner, as i've been traveling these last couple of weeks to shows. It's unfortunate that on some swords such as this one that these marks will probably never be completly understood. When i first saw these markings i first thought they looked like roman numerals, and had to be some kind of talasmanic thing, but some of the above comments make me think that maybe they could be an old ethiopean style of dialect. I have a dozen or so kaskaras and have seen many more, but none with this kind of lettering. I have a gurade that has what i think is coptic script that i will post pictures of next week...........Dave.

Jim McDougall · 10th May 2016, 04:26 PM

Ed,
Thank you so much!!! Brilliantly observed, and I confess I had not thought of Roman numerals used in repetitive linear motif. The note on the significance of numerology in Christian and Hebrew religions is indeed an important factor and particularly here in what may be invocative or commemorative.
It is interesting that the thuluth covered blades known in the Sudan are also using similar invocative repetitive style using Quranic phrases or wording.
I really appreciate your input on this, as your knowledge on the weapons of these regions is always key in our discussions.

Dave,
Thank you for the note and hope your trips have been successful.
As mentioned, often these kinds of situations are the case, and as this example was most interesting we were anxious to know your response as well as any further details.
Looking forward to your posts with any other examples as we continue to look into these Ethiopian inscriptions on arms.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th May 2016, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ed,
Thank you so much!!! Brilliantly observed, and I confess I had not thought of Roman numerals used in repetitive linear motif. The note on the significance of numerology in Christian and Hebrew religions is indeed an important factor and particularly here in what may be invocative or commemorative.
It is interesting that the thuluth covered blades known in the Sudan are also using similar invocative repetitive style using Quranic phrases or wording.
I really appreciate your input on this, as your knowledge on the weapons of these regions is always key in our discussions.

Dave,
Thank you for the note and hope your trips have been successful.
As mentioned, often these kinds of situations are the case, and as this example was most interesting we were anxious to know your response as well as any further details.
Looking forward to your posts with any other examples as we continue to look into these Ethiopian inscriptions on arms.

It is clear that Roman numerals played a key part in decorating blades in these regions...I mean that is how my brain works relating the Christian situation in the Holy Roman Empire ~ but is that the case...? www.geez.com puts it a little differently Quote'' Ethiopic numerals have a familiar quality about them that seems to catch the eye and pique the imagination of the first-time viewer. In particular, the bars above and below the letter-like symbols appear reminiscent of their Roman counterparts. The symbols in between the bars, however, are clearly not of Roman origin. The shapes appear Ethiopic but only half seem to correspond to Ethiopic syllables and in an incomprehensible order.

The Tuareg/Berber symbol repertoire appears to be drawn from overlapping categories that include Eastern Arabic and Perso-Arabic numerals and possibly Western digits and Indian Devanagari numbers as well; Arabic letters; Tifinagh characters; and the Islamic Seven Seals (the
ism al-aʿẓ amor Greatest Name).

Are the numbers not a corrupted pattern derived of the Seven Seals?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th May 2016, 09:04 PM

In many ways the key to understanding on these weapons and other Sahel variants is on http://iainnorman.com/

CharlesS · 26th May 2016, 09:42 PM

We have discussed a similar topic of "nonsense script" on a sboula sword here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=sboula

Jim McDougall · 27th May 2016, 01:30 AM

Excellent link Charles, and the topic was the s'boula dagger of Morocco which had a limited presence in Amharic context in Ethiopia as well as designated a 'Zanzibar' sword (Burton, 1885).

The 'nonsense' script described is actually a native effort at copying what appears to be the curious European inscriptions on many blades, particularly Spanish and Italian. These were often Roman letters confluenced with magical sigils or talismanic glyphs, and in sequenced linear repetition (Caino and Picinino in Italy). These were strangely sequenced, but rearranged in alternating groupings, so unlikely to be acrostics as many other blades.
The NONON and 'I's as well as other medieval groupings (many discussed in Oakeshott) are most typically invocations, and the magical sigils heightened the power imbued in them.

When these European blades entered the native contexts, they were intrigued by these markings which were of course focused on by traders extolling the virtues and power of them. Naturally native artisans would try to capture these qualities by imitating these inscriptions.

29th April 2016, 04:51 AM	#1
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Kaskara with interesting marks Picked this kaskara up at the Eugene Knife Show a couple of weeks ago. It has some marks i haven't seen before. The blade is 34 inches long, 39 inches overall. This kaskara seems to have a little more age to it than some of the others that i have. No concrete evidence for this, just a feeling and could be wrong. I can't tell if the markings have been etched or forged in while the blade was hot. It looks like Roman numerals have been put down the center of the three fullers. Talismanic ??????. Has anyone seen these stamps before? I don't think this is a european blade, but then sometimes it can be hard to tell. Any thoughts would be appreciated.............Dave. Attached Images

29th April 2016, 05:55 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	Dave, this kaskara is most interesting and I recognized those markings as from discussions long ago, in fact I finally found information from June, 2005 . In that discussion, everyone was pretty bewildered by these unusual markings, but 'Roanoa' who has long been our 'go to' guy on Ethiopian weapons had the answer. He claims kaskaras with this motif were from Eritrea. In other research over the years it seems that it has been suggested that the head on these may represent King Johannes IV of Ethiopia, who fought against incursions from the Italians, as well as the Mahdists. He was killed by them at the Battle of Gallabat March 10, 1889, and later his body was captured by Mahdist forces. The corpse was beheaded and the head taken to Omdurman as a trophy. The curious 'numerals' or characters may represent Amharic in stylized form (they look nothing like it really), but neither of these ideas are overly compelling. The lion represents interpretation of the Ethiopian Lion of Judah. It does seem that several of these are known, one was a blade alone. In any case the possibility remains Eritrean and probably end 19th early 20th c. Attached Images

7th May 2016, 07:38 PM	#11
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All, I have to say that this is a most interesting set of blade marks but where is the originator? There are many excellent additions to this thread but zero response. People are more than willing to research and add their notes but it really is a two way street and if thread authors don't respond it is somewhat a poor show in this regard. That said; I have the notion that Jims attribution is spot on and support that with the following item... That of Johannes the 4th in the 19thC and the accolade amongst his followers that he was in fact looked upon as The Lion of Judea. Type into search Johannes the 4th of Ethiopia or see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yohannes_IV Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 7th May 2016 at 09:14 PM.

10th May 2016, 03:40 AM	#15
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Interesting kaskara Jim: Sorry for not responding sooner, as i've been traveling these last couple of weeks to shows. It's unfortunate that on some swords such as this one that these marks will probably never be completly understood. When i first saw these markings i first thought they looked like roman numerals, and had to be some kind of talasmanic thing, but some of the above comments make me think that maybe they could be an old ethiopean style of dialect. I have a dozen or so kaskaras and have seen many more, but none with this kind of lettering. I have a gurade that has what i think is coptic script that i will post pictures of next week...........Dave.

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6th May 2016, 06:21 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	Always glad to be of help.

6th May 2016, 03:48 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I may be wrong, but the script does not look Amhamric to me to be Ethopian. Could they be talismanic?

6th May 2016, 05:34 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	Hi Jose, Thank you so much for the support. It is always disappointing when a query is posted and from nearly two hundred views, there is not a single response beyond my entry last week. This is a most curious blade, as I noted, and as it is pretty obscure among most kaskara data, it took me quite a long time through old notes to find clues. This most interesting motif in the fullers appears to be a linear approach to certain stylized impressions of what may have been the stamped cartouche of Mashin Khana in Kabul in the 1890s. By about 1900 this was also in a round cartouche, and these are often so degenerated or worn the most prominent features are the lines in the device. I have seen a knife of unclear origin (but likely Nepali or regions in Northern Bengal) with three of these squares and another kaskara with a single square cartouche with this type of image, but no illustrations at hand, just my notes. I know there are guys out there who collect kaskara and this as I have noted probably goes to Ethiopia and Eritrea. I once had a friend from Eritrea who was Beja, and knew kaskara well (they never heard that term) and shared a video of tribal dances using them (the sa'if broadsword) I know this is not Amharic, nor any particular script as these are simply linear repeated characters which are just lines in X's and I's . Thus, I would doubt talismanic unless there is some numerical order, and more likely to be a stylized 'impression' of the Amharic or other script. With the singular instances (and triple on the knife) it is hard to say what these mean, Perhaps one day someone out there might recognize these markings ( lately I have seen threads come up from nearly a decade ago!). Thanks again Jose, very much appreciated .

7th May 2016, 12:07 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I guess I was wondering if the numbers might be talismanic. In some cultures, certain numbers carry more meaning than they do here in the US. Another thought is that they might be made to look like talismanic numbers, but might just be gibberish. Seen a lot of these too.......

7th May 2016, 08:30 AM	#8
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	My guess is that these impressions have no particular meaning, though possibly they were inspired by having seen Roman numerals, perhaps on a European clock for instance. Their production would only require two or three simple metal punches. I have noticed similar phenomena on Oceanic wooden clubs, which have incised on them a meaningless jumble of letters, probably copied from a book or newspaper. But an interesting sword, nonetheless.

7th May 2016, 09:31 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	Thank you very much for these interesting views, and I think Kubur may have a point in degree with the suggestion of the Axumite characters which are indeed like Roman numerals in a number of instances among them. Ibrahiim, I think your zero response note are refers to the odd lack of response by the thread originator, which while curious, does seem to happen on many occasions. I always hope for the best, and that they have simply forgotten about the post or perhaps computer issues or travelling might preclude their response. In any case, I am glad to have this blade posted, as it has been years since one like it was discussed, so good to have opportunity for new insights. I really appreciate the great images, and the note on this Ethiopian king being referred to as the Lion of Judah. I have the impression these blades are commemorative rather than talismanic and celebrate this king who was killed in battle against Mahdist forces.

8th May 2016, 06:54 PM	#13
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all..before I forget there is this excellent article on our own pages at http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/kaskara/ Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

10th May 2016, 03:23 AM	#14
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	As previous respondents have observed the inscription is not Amharic script and appears to be a repetition of the Roman numerals for 12. The original owner had the artisan go to considerable effort to inscribe the XII motif. It apparently reflected considerable meaning to him. As Ethiopia is a Christian nation with Jewish elements, I suggest that this is Hebrew and/or Christian numerology. The attached link discusses the significance of the number 12. Other searches will reveal Ethiopian numerology context. http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/m...-bible/12.html Best, Ed

10th May 2016, 04:26 PM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	Ed, Thank you so much!!! Brilliantly observed, and I confess I had not thought of Roman numerals used in repetitive linear motif. The note on the significance of numerology in Christian and Hebrew religions is indeed an important factor and particularly here in what may be invocative or commemorative. It is interesting that the thuluth covered blades known in the Sudan are also using similar invocative repetitive style using Quranic phrases or wording. I really appreciate your input on this, as your knowledge on the weapons of these regions is always key in our discussions. Dave, Thank you for the note and hope your trips have been successful. As mentioned, often these kinds of situations are the case, and as this example was most interesting we were anxious to know your response as well as any further details. Looking forward to your posts with any other examples as we continue to look into these Ethiopian inscriptions on arms.

26th May 2016, 09:04 PM	#18
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	In many ways the key to understanding on these weapons and other Sahel variants is on http://iainnorman.com/

26th May 2016, 09:42 PM	#19
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	We have discussed a similar topic of "nonsense script" on a sboula sword here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=sboula

27th May 2016, 01:30 AM	#20
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	Excellent link Charles, and the topic was the s'boula dagger of Morocco which had a limited presence in Amharic context in Ethiopia as well as designated a 'Zanzibar' sword (Burton, 1885). The 'nonsense' script described is actually a native effort at copying what appears to be the curious European inscriptions on many blades, particularly Spanish and Italian. These were often Roman letters confluenced with magical sigils or talismanic glyphs, and in sequenced linear repetition (Caino and Picinino in Italy). These were strangely sequenced, but rearranged in alternating groupings, so unlikely to be acrostics as many other blades. The NONON and 'I's as well as other medieval groupings (many discussed in Oakeshott) are most typically invocations, and the magical sigils heightened the power imbued in them. When these European blades entered the native contexts, they were intrigued by these markings which were of course focused on by traders extolling the virtues and power of them. Naturally native artisans would try to capture these qualities by imitating these inscriptions.