Shashka??? Or what ????

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by estcrh

... Kilij has come to mean any Ottoman pistol grip sword whether it has a yelman or not, straight blade or highly curved blade, T spine or shamshir blade etc...

I do not know how this came about. surely, some collectors have their ways and terminology "preferences", but traditionally, Kilij signifies the blade with yelman, not any blade with pistol grip. There are Indian blades with yelman and tulwar-type hilts that can be called Kilij-type blades because of specific blade profile, regardless of the grip. Likewise, there are Kilijes with other, not pistol hilt types. It is profile of the blade that makes it a Kilij to begin with.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ALEX

It is profile of the blade that makes it a Kilij to begin with.

Alex, according to who?

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Alex, according to who?

about every knowledgeable collector i know, and all decent books I read.
They all could be wrong, of course. Please substantiate your argument.

By the way, in Oriental Arms sample above, it states "shamshir blade in Turkish fittings". The Kilij/Shamshir title may refer to "Kilij" as a word for sword in Turkish language, as in other similar descriptions. but I have not seen anything saying any blade with pistol grip is a Kilij.

We had similar argument before about "Saif" as any sword with Arab hilt
Word Saif means sword in Arabic, just as Kilij is sword in Turkish. What this has to do with the hilt type?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ALEX

about every knowledgeable collector i know, and all decent books I read.
They all could be wrong, of course. Please substantiate your argument.

By the way, in Oriental Arms sample above, it states "shamshir blade in Turkish fittings". The Kilij/Shamshir title may refer to "Kilij" as a word for sword in Turkish language, as in other similar descriptions. but I have not seen anything saying any blade with pistol grip is a Kilij.

http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s1072_full.html

[ALEX]

Good, this is a Turkish\Ottoman shamshir that someone called Kilij. Do you have more reliable references, not on-line ads?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Good, this is a Turkish\Ottoman shamshir that someone called Kilij. Do you have more reliable references, not on-line ads?

Alex you call it what you want, other people will do the same.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Alex you call it what you want, other people will do the same.

This is a perfect example of the same confusion. Even the one who wrote the description concedes this is a Persian blade, yet he identifies it EXCLUSIVELY by its hilt.

If this line of thougt is correct, then whatever sword bears a characteristic Indian disc-shaped pommel, is a Tulwar (see for example lots 1, 2, 4-11 of Czerny's last auction; pay spacial attention to lots 7, 8 and 11).

www.czernys.com/auctions_view.php?asta=57

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Alex you call it what you want, other people will do the same.

Estcrh, I am not calling anything because of what I want, please do not make such calls for others. on this note, I rest my case.