Strange engraved Keris blade.

Gustav · 11th March 2016, 08:21 PM

It could be an original old one indeed. A very similar one, actually almost identical within smallest details (which could be also suspicious), with the same thick Gonjo, is depicted in van der Hoop, Indonesische Siermotiven, 1949, on pages 119 and 139.

I see a Surya of Majapahit between other symbols. If it isn't a copy, it could be a very old Keris. Thank you for sharing!

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2016, 04:11 AM

This type of blade is very infrequently seen these days, but in the 1970's they were not particularly uncommon in markets in Jakarta and Central and East Jawa. During the 1970's I bought a few myself, and I still have a tombak blade with this type of surface ornamentation, that was given to me.

Frequently the relief design is produced by deep acid etching, sometimes -- in the better examples -- the design is carved into the surface. I remember seeing a keris like this in a showcase in the lobby of a hotel in Surabaya in 1974 that had a label advising viewers that it was Erlangga's keris. Erlangga ruled East Jawa from about 1030 to 1050. Decide for yourself if it really was Erlangga's keris.

In respect of the keris under discussion, in form it bears a number of indicators that permit it to be classified as Tuban, the one indicator that is simply not open to debate is the form of the top of the gonjo, which is neither sebit ron nor uceng mati, the buntut urang is cut off square and abruptly. There is no gonjo other than Tuban of this form.

However, if we look at the base of the very substantial pesi and most particularly what we see where that pesi enters the gonjo, we do not see any indication that we are looking at a keris that could have the age of a true Tuban keris, in this case, Tuban of the sub-division Pajajaran.

Similarly, the kembang kacang that in this keris becomes the elephants trunk still shows the square cut at its tip where it folds into proximity with the gandhik, and the ron dha carvings are exceptionally well preserved. Not what we expect in a keris that is +300 years old.

I cannot see if this keris has a slorok (steel core), but even if it does, I think it is almost certain that the outer skin of the blade is good quality wrought iron, not really pamor.

Based upon what I believe I can see in these photographs it is my opinion that this keris was made between 1850 and 1940, and specifically as a base for the carving.

It is not a recent keris, and it is a very well made keris, the surface ornamentation appears to be carved, not etched, but it is not nearly as old as the form would suggest.

Gustav · 12th March 2016, 07:39 AM

Alan, regarding the base of Pesi where it enters Gonjo -

there is a significant step and the Pesi inside Gonjo is a lot thicker. If the surface at this place wouldn't be so fresh - would this actually be a sign for an old Keris?

Athanase · 12th March 2016, 09:31 AM

Thank you for the very rich comments.
About pesi, when I removed hilt and mendak I saw that the base of pesi is not rust like the length of pesi or the top of gonjo. (I removed lot of rust before taking picture).
I feel that the basis of pesi was filed to place the mendak.
As Gustav say, I see that the pesi is slightly larger inside the Gonjo.

The clothes of this keris seem old, it is possible to give approximate age depending on the details of mendak, pendok, handle etc.. or the materials used?

Jean · 12th March 2016, 12:05 PM

Hello Athanase,
Welcome to the forum!
I have no doubt that this blade is old but because of the shiny surface the carved motifs and potential pamor are not very visible. In order to improve the surface look and remove the rust spots, I would advise you to clean the blade by dipping it completely in undiluted vinegar (8°) or 10% citric acid (or a mix of the 2 products) for about 24 h with 2 intermediate brushings, which would not attack the iron/ steel itself. After treating, carefully rinse & dry the blade, and treat it immediately with WD40 for preserving it from future rusting.
Regards

David · 12th March 2016, 04:27 PM

Thanks for your more in-depth analysis Alan. Precisely why i asked for those additional views.
Can you comment any further on the nature of such keris? Iron Ancestors makes a vague reference on pg. 186 to a small Bali keris with wayang carvings that was used to make holy water for the Odalam festival. I have no way of verifying such a statement. Obvious as we move more into later era creation such keris are likely created more as art objects, but considering this one seems to be at least pre-WWII is it at all likely it was created for some specific ritual purpose?

Athanase · 12th March 2016, 08:54 PM

On the internet I saw this keris which is similar :

http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/21837

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2016, 11:41 PM

Gustav, there are several things that have caught my attention with the pesi, and measured against characteristics of blades that I know to be truly old, they just don't fit. The thickness of the pesi base compared to the thickness of the actual pesi itself is not uncommon, but in this keris the shoulder of that thicker section appears to have a radius, which indicates extreme attention to detail and something I cannot recall ever having seen previously. Additionally, the tip of the pesi appears to have a very slight swelling, not something that is common in very old blades. In short, this pesi does not strike me as having the appearance of something that I would expect to see on a really old keris.

It is very obvious that the pesi has been freshly filed for some reason or other, maybe to fit the mendak as suggested by Athanase, and this fresh filing is not a part of my considerations, it could as easily appear in a keris made last week as in one made many years ago.

I actually don't know of any specific "sign" that will indicate an older keris, or the comparative age of any keris. Something that came out of its native society 300 or 400 hundred years ago can look virtually brand new if stored carefully in a European collection.

I have based my opinion on the comparison of this keris with the many other keris I have seen over the years, especially comparison with keris of a similar style. Bear this in mind: stylistically this keris is Tuban. Tuban was a trading port, it was not a kraton, and keris from the hinterland and from the north coast were taken to Tuban for sale and for export. This keris has been made to satisfy a market demand, not to conform with the dictates of a royally approved style. I also cannot forget the many keris of this type that I saw with dealers in Jawa during the 1970's, and the virtual disappearance of this style in the market-place at the present time.

However, above all I must emphasise that my opinion could change if I handled this object:-

"--- Based upon what I believe I can see in these photographs ---"

David, I cannot answer your question, because I do not know of any specific talismanic associations with this style of keris. I do know that many people who were and are not a part of the Javanese keris world, but who do have a strong belief in the esoteric character of the keris have a strong belief in the protective value of this type of blade, both keris and tombak. So, yes, possibly there was some intent that a keris like this might have been intended as a talisman, but no reliable informant has ever told me this.

Athanase, as Jean has suggested, a light etch with a mild acid will give you an indication of the nature of the outer skin of the blade, however, it would be cautious to paint the blade with a slurry of bicarbonate of soda and let it stand for a few minutes after your initial rinse, and before drying and applying WD40.
The wrongko and mendak on this keris are typical of the period 1850 - 1940. Neither are what we would expect to see as original on a keris predating 1800.

12th March 2016, 07:39 AM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,275	Alan, regarding the base of Pesi where it enters Gonjo - there is a significant step and the Pesi inside Gonjo is a lot thicker. If the surface at this place wouldn't be so fresh - would this actually be a sign for an old Keris? Last edited by Gustav; 12th March 2016 at 09:23 AM. Reason: misspelling

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

11th March 2016, 08:21 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,275	It could be an original old one indeed. A very similar one, actually almost identical within smallest details (which could be also suspicious), with the same thick Gonjo, is depicted in van der Hoop, Indonesische Siermotiven, 1949, on pages 119 and 139. I see a Surya of Majapahit between other symbols. If it isn't a copy, it could be a very old Keris. Thank you for sharing!

12th March 2016, 04:11 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	This type of blade is very infrequently seen these days, but in the 1970's they were not particularly uncommon in markets in Jakarta and Central and East Jawa. During the 1970's I bought a few myself, and I still have a tombak blade with this type of surface ornamentation, that was given to me. Frequently the relief design is produced by deep acid etching, sometimes -- in the better examples -- the design is carved into the surface. I remember seeing a keris like this in a showcase in the lobby of a hotel in Surabaya in 1974 that had a label advising viewers that it was Erlangga's keris. Erlangga ruled East Jawa from about 1030 to 1050. Decide for yourself if it really was Erlangga's keris. In respect of the keris under discussion, in form it bears a number of indicators that permit it to be classified as Tuban, the one indicator that is simply not open to debate is the form of the top of the gonjo, which is neither sebit ron nor uceng mati, the buntut urang is cut off square and abruptly. There is no gonjo other than Tuban of this form. However, if we look at the base of the very substantial pesi and most particularly what we see where that pesi enters the gonjo, we do not see any indication that we are looking at a keris that could have the age of a true Tuban keris, in this case, Tuban of the sub-division Pajajaran. Similarly, the kembang kacang that in this keris becomes the elephants trunk still shows the square cut at its tip where it folds into proximity with the gandhik, and the ron dha carvings are exceptionally well preserved. Not what we expect in a keris that is +300 years old. I cannot see if this keris has a slorok (steel core), but even if it does, I think it is almost certain that the outer skin of the blade is good quality wrought iron, not really pamor. Based upon what I believe I can see in these photographs it is my opinion that this keris was made between 1850 and 1940, and specifically as a base for the carving. It is not a recent keris, and it is a very well made keris, the surface ornamentation appears to be carved, not etched, but it is not nearly as old as the form would suggest.

12th March 2016, 09:31 AM	#4
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 420	Thank you for the very rich comments. About pesi, when I removed hilt and mendak I saw that the base of pesi is not rust like the length of pesi or the top of gonjo. (I removed lot of rust before taking picture). I feel that the basis of pesi was filed to place the mendak. As Gustav say, I see that the pesi is slightly larger inside the Gonjo. The clothes of this keris seem old, it is possible to give approximate age depending on the details of mendak, pendok, handle etc.. or the materials used?

12th March 2016, 12:05 PM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Athanase, Welcome to the forum! I have no doubt that this blade is old but because of the shiny surface the carved motifs and potential pamor are not very visible. In order to improve the surface look and remove the rust spots, I would advise you to clean the blade by dipping it completely in undiluted vinegar (8°) or 10% citric acid (or a mix of the 2 products) for about 24 h with 2 intermediate brushings, which would not attack the iron/ steel itself. After treating, carefully rinse & dry the blade, and treat it immediately with WD40 for preserving it from future rusting. Regards

12th March 2016, 04:27 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Thanks for your more in-depth analysis Alan. Precisely why i asked for those additional views. Can you comment any further on the nature of such keris? Iron Ancestors makes a vague reference on pg. 186 to a small Bali keris with wayang carvings that was used to make holy water for the Odalam festival. I have no way of verifying such a statement. Obvious as we move more into later era creation such keris are likely created more as art objects, but considering this one seems to be at least pre-WWII is it at all likely it was created for some specific ritual purpose?

12th March 2016, 08:54 PM	#7
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 420	On the internet I saw this keris which is similar : http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/21837

12th March 2016, 11:41 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Gustav, there are several things that have caught my attention with the pesi, and measured against characteristics of blades that I know to be truly old, they just don't fit. The thickness of the pesi base compared to the thickness of the actual pesi itself is not uncommon, but in this keris the shoulder of that thicker section appears to have a radius, which indicates extreme attention to detail and something I cannot recall ever having seen previously. Additionally, the tip of the pesi appears to have a very slight swelling, not something that is common in very old blades. In short, this pesi does not strike me as having the appearance of something that I would expect to see on a really old keris. It is very obvious that the pesi has been freshly filed for some reason or other, maybe to fit the mendak as suggested by Athanase, and this fresh filing is not a part of my considerations, it could as easily appear in a keris made last week as in one made many years ago. I actually don't know of any specific "sign" that will indicate an older keris, or the comparative age of any keris. Something that came out of its native society 300 or 400 hundred years ago can look virtually brand new if stored carefully in a European collection. I have based my opinion on the comparison of this keris with the many other keris I have seen over the years, especially comparison with keris of a similar style. Bear this in mind: stylistically this keris is Tuban. Tuban was a trading port, it was not a kraton, and keris from the hinterland and from the north coast were taken to Tuban for sale and for export. This keris has been made to satisfy a market demand, not to conform with the dictates of a royally approved style. I also cannot forget the many keris of this type that I saw with dealers in Jawa during the 1970's, and the virtual disappearance of this style in the market-place at the present time. However, above all I must emphasise that my opinion could change if I handled this object:- "--- Based upon what I believe I can see in these photographs ---" David, I cannot answer your question, because I do not know of any specific talismanic associations with this style of keris. I do know that many people who were and are not a part of the Javanese keris world, but who do have a strong belief in the esoteric character of the keris have a strong belief in the protective value of this type of blade, both keris and tombak. So, yes, possibly there was some intent that a keris like this might have been intended as a talisman, but no reliable informant has ever told me this. Athanase, as Jean has suggested, a light etch with a mild acid will give you an indication of the nature of the outer skin of the blade, however, it would be cautious to paint the blade with a slurry of bicarbonate of soda and let it stand for a few minutes after your initial rinse, and before drying and applying WD40. The wrongko and mendak on this keris are typical of the period 1850 - 1940. Neither are what we would expect to see as original on a keris predating 1800.