19thc Syrian Saif with European blade

[harrywagner]

It has been an interesting week for me as a collector. I was fortunate enough to find this "must have" item that appears complete and was within my budget. I think it looks like the sword in figure 2.6, page 12, of Dr. Elgood's "Arms and Armour of Arabia...". I am hoping it is a 19thc Syrian Saif with a European blade. The scabbard is well-worn leather over wood. The mounts are blackened steel decorated with silver koftgari in the form of geometric patterns and two (as yet untranslated) Arabic quotes. The cross guard is decorated with gold koftgari (at least I think it is gold), much of which has worn off over time.The blade has a single wide fuller that runs from the forte to approximately two thirds the length of the blade on both sides. It has some condition issues but nothing I can't fix or live with. Here are the dimensions:

LOA: 36" LOB 30.5"

I am hoping that someone here can confirm that this is what I think it is. I am often wrong and have bee fooled many times. TIA!

Harry

[Jim McDougall]

I gotta say Harry, I love being along on this great ride of yours!!!
This one is indeed a Syrian sa'if, and the blade is from a British M1796 light cavalry sabre.
These were around in huge volume throughout the 19th century, long after being superceded by the M1821 patterns of sabres for troopers. These in surplus seem to have entered every imaginable entrepot as surplus or trade items. While the British were of course quite present in Arabia (notably Aden) that these blades entered trade markets seems well established.
There should be a makers stamp (or remains of one) on blade back near forte.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I gotta say Harry, I love being along on this great ride of yours!!!
This one is indeed a Syrian sa'if, and the blade is from a British M1796 light cavalry sabre.
These were around in huge volume throughout the 19th century, long after being superceded by the M1821 patterns of sabres for troopers. These in surplus seem to have entered every imaginable entrepot as surplus or trade items. While the British were of course quite present in Arabia (notably Aden) that these blades entered trade markets seems well established.
There should be a makers stamp (or remains of one) on blade back near forte.

Thanks Jim. That is a relief. I did not think it was a fake, but am very relieved to have a more experienced collector confirm that. I can't find any marks on the blade, but it is possible there is one under the guard. One of those tiny mirrors dentists use would sure come in handy.

It really has been an adventure. I think it has been less than two years since I bought my first vintage or antique piece. I have 40 years of missed collecting to catchup on so I have been buying at an accelerated rate. It has been a little humiliating but mostly fun. I am totally hooked. Who knew collecting would be so addictive!

Harry

[Kubur]

Congratulations Harry it's a super good catch and all good!
If i was you i'll remove the modern rivets in the guard.
Expect the pommel missing, it's a very complete and original Syrian sword.
I've never seen British blade on this kind of sword,maybe Jim can show us some models or more information to support his proposal.
Kubur

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Congratulations Harry it's a super good catch and all good!
If i was you i'll remove the modern rivets in the guard.
Expect the pommel missing, it's a very complete and original Syrian sword.
I've never seen British blade on this kind of sword,maybe Jim can show us some models or more information to support his proposal.
Kubur

Thanks Kubur! Any chance you can translate the Arabic at the scabbard throat? I think there is another quote at the chape, but it does not show up very well in the photos. Thanks again. I appreciate your help!

[Jim McDougall]

The collecting is indeed a passion Harry! and I enjoyed it for many decades but for me personally, learning from the weapons has been my greatest joy.
That is why I write here, because I get to vicariously enjoy the great items you guys find, and try to share what I have learned on one hand, but at the same time learn with you.........we never stop being students

I should have added an image of the sword form I was suggesting and appreciate being reminded to do so.

Attached is the well known British M1796 light cavalry sabre, and in the other image alongside the sabres we once regarded as 'Berber'. These so called Berber sabres seem to have been nearly invariably mounted with these British sabre blades, but as seen here, the usual hatchet point was dramatically reprofiled in an almost 'kampilan' type point.

While these are of course in no way connected here, the idea was to show the wide distribution of these blades. They remained profoundly used in India, where they were often found in tulwars, in fact often to the dismay of British cavalry such as during the Sikh Wars.

This blade may have ended up out of India in this situation or any number of circumstances. The modern rivets are not of particular concern in the Syrian type hilt (Robert Elgoods book you have there is fantastic, and great perspective on the British presence in Arabia I mentioned)....as these blades were quite often recycled as swords were remounted constantly through generations.
It would not be hard to imagine this sabre having been at a Bedouins side in the constant use in the early 20th century as these sabres remained often key weapons in intertribal raiding that was inherent in those days.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Attached is the well known British M1796 light cavalry sabre, and in the other image alongside the sabres we once regarded as 'Berber'. These so called Berber sabres seem to have been nearly invariably mounted with these British sabre blades, but as seen here, the usual hatchet point was dramatically

Ok British influence makes sense with the so-called berber swords as we have also a lot of koummia blades from "London" or copies.
For Syrian sword, I'm not convinced at all, most of Syrian blades are styrians, Eastern European and of course Persian. Lot of Arabian swords have German blades and I think Harry that you have a German blade.
And i'm not a specialist at all like Jim but i think one of the sword pictured above is Prussian?
Best,
Kubur

[harrywagner]

I will try and post better photos tomorrow. The weather here today was gloomy, at best, and the light in my office is not nearly good enough to compensate.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Ok British influence makes sense with the so-called berber swords as we have also a lot of koummia blades from "London" or copies.
For Syrian sword, I'm not convinced at all, most of Syrian blades are styrians, Eastern European and of course Persian. Lot of Arabian swords have German blades and I think Harry that you have a German blade.
And i'm not a specialist at all like Jim but i think one of the sword pictured above is Prussian?
Best,
Kubur

Actually it is indeed unusual to see a British blade in an Arab sword, and it is well noted by Elgood that Persian blades were in the highest esteem by them, followed closely by those of India. Many blades were of Caucasian origin as well as those termed 'shintayan', which seem to be Hungarian, however those were usually typically made in Germany or Styria.

It is well noted thus that German blades were indeed present, and may well have filtered into these markets through any of the source regions named.
The thing about this particular blade form, which I suggest is a British M1796 light cavalry, is that these are remarkably difficult to distinguish from the German ones being suggested.
Those are I presume the Prussian M1811 cavalry sabre, known as the 'Blucher Sabel'. The reason for this ironically is that in the years prior to 1811, the Germans ordered many British M1796 blades, to the degree that the Prussians designed their own stirrup hilt sabre in that year.
Other than distinguishing markings or proof stamps, I have not found any notes to tell the British from the German blades, while the hilts had subtle differences.

It does seem an anomaly to see one of these presumably British blades in one of these Syrian mounted sabres, but it is hard to really question considering the many trade exchange circumstances which may have accounted for the combination.
One circumstance which may have increased the potential for a British blade in one of these 'Baddawi' hilts would be that these type blades continued being produced by British makers long after the 1821 swords superceded the 1796. These were for the British units in India, as seen in examples here.

[A.alnakkas]

I believe the confusion arises by thinking that the iron fitted Syrian saifs are 19th century. This is problematic, as Syrian saifs from the 19th century whether in museums or in older pictures often shown with silver or bronze mounts. A good portion of the silver fitted saifs (even ones made according to the preference of the bedouins) often employ Ottoman proof marks. With a style that is very hard to differentiate from Ottoman styles if not for the hilt construction. While these iron sheet mounted saifs trace earliest to a photo of them being made in a Syrian work shop in 1936.

To classify this type and not confuse it with Syrian saifs mounted with older, Persian made iron mounts; This type of construction is usually made by cutting iron sheets into shape, very little work is done other than the shaping and welding of the sheets together to form a chape, carrying fittings and a locket. Some examples even have modern welding signs which is normal considering that these are still being made. Then koftgari is applied. The iron on these rusts very fast.

Here is an example of one being made (a very similar example):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U694BDSIISE

The older ones fitted with Persian mounts are different, often looking very similar to Persian examples but with Turkish style stitching on the scabbard and Syrian style hilts.

I'll post some pictures once I manage to look them up :-)

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I believe the confusion arises by thinking that the iron fitted Syrian saifs are 19th century. This is problematic, as Syrian saifs from the 19th century whether in museums or in older pictures often shown with silver or bronze mounts. A good portion of the silver fitted saifs (even ones made according to the preference of the bedouins) often employ Ottoman proof marks. With a style that is very hard to differentiate from Ottoman styles if not for the hilt construction. While these iron sheet mounted saifs trace earliest to a photo of them being made in a Syrian work shop in 1936.

To classify this type and not confuse it with Syrian saifs mounted with older, Persian made iron mounts; This type of construction is usually made by cutting iron sheets into shape, very little work is done other than the shaping and welding of the sheets together to form a chape, carrying fittings and a locket. Some examples even have modern welding signs which is normal considering that these are still being made. Then koftgari is applied. The iron on these rusts very fast.

Here is an example of one being made (a very similar example):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U694BDSIISE

The older ones fitted with Persian mounts are different, often looking very similar to Persian examples but with Turkish style stitching on the scabbard and Syrian style hilts.

I'll post some pictures once I manage to look them up :-)

I'd think this needs to be a little better quantified.

The dress the saif sits in with the sheet steel type fittings and Kofrgari are post French Syrian conflicts of the early 20th century, and in most cases it is just the upper and lower fittings themselves that date to this period...the swords them selves should be taken in individual context as much as the remaining scabbard manufacture.

Gavin

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I believe the confusion arises by thinking that the iron fitted Syrian saifs are 19th century. This is problematic, as Syrian saifs from the 19th century whether in museums or in older pictures often shown with silver or bronze mounts..................

To classify this type and not confuse it with Syrian saifs mounted with older, Persian made iron mounts; This type of construction is usually made by cutting iron sheets into shape, very little work is done other than the shaping and welding of the sheets together to form a chape, carrying fittings and a locket. Some examples even have modern welding signs which is normal considering that these are still being made. Then koftgari is applied. The iron on these rusts very fast....................


The older ones fitted with Persian mounts are different, often looking very similar to Persian examples but with Turkish style stitching on the scabbard and Syrian style hilts...............

I'll post some pictures once I manage to look them up :-)

Is this what you are describing?

[harrywagner]

Does anyone know where I can find a suitable replacement pommel cap? Thanks all for the comments!

Harry

[A.alnakkas]

These generally have iron pommel caps. But silver or brass would do.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

These generally have iron pommel caps. But silver or brass would do.

Many thanks! Searching ePray for "pommel cap shamshir" produces only one possible item. I imagine these are difficult to find? If anyone spots one for sale I would appreciate knowing. Thanks again. Much appreciated.

Harry