My First Kris

[arsendaday]

Hello this is my first Kris, as I was told an old Philippine Moro Kris. I would like to hear some opinions from the experts about this piece. Thanks in advance.


P.S. I bought three more krises recently and I will post some photos as soon as I receive them.

[David]

Sorry, we only discuss Malay/Indonesian keris on this forum. Moro kris/kalis/sundang are discussed on the general Ethnographic weapons pages.
I'm transferring this to that forum.

[VANDOO]

WELCOME TO THE MORO KRIS COLLECTING GROUP. YOU HAVE A NICE KRIS FOR A FIRST ONE. IT HAS WHAT WE REFER TO AS THE HORSE HOOF STYLE POMMEL WHICH WOULD HAVE HAD MOTHER OF PEARL SECTIONS WITH DESIGNS ATTACHED. THE PEGS APPEAR TO BE THERE BUT THE PEARL SHELL IS MISSING. THE BLADE IS OF THE PART STRAIGHT AND PART WAVY FORM WITH UNUSUAL DESIGN CUT INTO THE BLADE. SOME OF THE MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE MEMBERS WILL BE ABLE TO FILL IN A BIT MORE INFORMATION.

[Battara]

This kris looks like it may be from the Maguindanao region and was made at a later date, perhaps the 1960s?

The ganga line is engraved and is not separate - meaning that it is not from the turn of the 20th century or earlier.

[harrywagner]

Good start! Congrats on your find.

[arsendaday]

Thanks everybody for commenting on my Kris. I was introduced to Krises on this forum and got fascinated by them. I am trying to learn as much as possible and I appreciate all the help that I can get.

Question: Is it normal that all the blades on all the Krises are bendable. I mean you can easily bend this blade and then you will have to bend it back. For example European blades will spring back themselves and some of them will bend up to 90 degree before they go out of shape. Thanks.

[Battara]

For early Moro kris the bending is little. Thinner later Moro kris might be more easily bendable. Never tried to bend one before.

[arsendaday]

I am not bending the blades to ruin them. I just check all of my swords or any bladed weapons to see if they do. I have always wondered how were warriors able to fight with inferior swords or any other bladed weapons that bent. Imagine that you are trying to parry a blow and your sword bends to the side and stays like that. From than on you have two choices either to throw away your sword and run out of the battlefield or sit down on the ground and pray that no one will kill you while you are trying to straighten you sword.

[David]

Originally Posted by arsendaday

Question: Is it normal that all the blades on all the Krises are bendable. I mean you can easily bend this blade and then you will have to bend it back. For example European blades will spring back themselves and some of them will bend up to 90 degree before they go out of shape. Thanks.

No blade should go easily out of shape when you try to bend it. If it bends and doesn't spring back i'd say that's not a good thing.

[VANDOO]

TO BEND A KRIS BLADE WITH THE BARE HANDS AND IT STAY THAT WAY IS SOMETHING I HAVE NEVER SEEN DONE AND I SERIOUSLY DOUBT I COULD ACCOMPLISH WITH ANY OF MINE. YOUR EXAMPLE APPEARS TO HAVE A BLADE THICKNESS THAT IS NORMAL PERHAPS IT HAS LOST ITS TEMPER OR YOU USED SOMETHING OTHER THAN BARE HANDS TO BEND IT.? AT ANY RATE ANY SWORD THAT EASILY BENDS, DOSE'T SPRING BACK AND STAYS BENT IS INFERIOR AND UNDESIRABLE IN MY OPINION.

[arsendaday]

I bend them with bare hands and I am being very gentle too. Now I have 4 Krises from different times and regions and all of them bend and stay out of shape. And not only the krises. Most Indian Tulwars that I own and almost all the Caucasian Kindjals that I own have the same issue. Exceptions are Russian made kindjals and Bebuts, but those are made at a later time and in factories. So I was always wandering if its just me or its common.

[arsendaday]

Here are all my krises. One is an old Bali one, the others are new from Sumatra and Jawa, as I am told.

[Emanuel]

Hello,

You have to differentiate between the short sword KRIS sundang from the Philippines, and the KERIS dagger from the Indonesian archipelago. Your first piece is a KRIS. Your other 4 are KERIS. The Balinese one actually doesn't looka that old.

The KRIS sword blades should not take a set, while the KERIS daggers might, as they're lower carbon-content and softer.

Emanuel

[David]

You will remember that i originally shifted this thread to the Ethno forum because the kris you posted was not an Indonesian/Malay keris. Well, now you are posting Indonesian keris and these need to be discussed on the keris forum, not here.
While this two weapons have an overall similar form (the Indonesian keris being the ancestor to later development of Moro kris/kalis forms) they are from different cultures and operate differently as weapons (stabbing vs. slashing). If you want to talk about these Indonesian keris please post them on the Keris Forum.
While keris are usually hardened (some more recent ones perhaps not), they are more likely to be softer (lower carbon) than their Moro cousins. But honestly you baffle me a bit here. Why on earth would you want to bend an the blade risking irrevocable damage and possibly breaking these blades? I am afraid i just don't understand that.

[David]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

The Balinese one actually doesn't looka that old.

Emanuel, the "Bali" keris posted here is probably the oldest of the lot and in fact seems to have some considerable age. The dress for it is late 20th century, but the blade is fairly old and looks to be to perhaps be of Javanese origin.

[Battara]

I must agree with David here. Although both kris and kris are cousins and part of the same family tree, they are of course not the same. For that reason kris are discussed here and keris are discussed on the Keris Forum.

[arsendaday]

Hi everyone. My apologies for being a little confused about the "Kris" & "Keris". When I was buying these daggers the descriptions on all of them had kris and keris in them, but I am learning and will be more careful next time. I really appreciate all the input and comments.

As for the blade bending; I am not doing it all the way, nor did I ever ruin any blades by doing so. What I am doing is feeling it a little bit, to determine if it is a quality steel or not. As most of you know the European blades are very springy and some of them can be bent well over 45 degrees without any harm to the blade. More over in Russian factories in Zlatoust and Izhevsk that's how they determined if the blade is of good quality or not, i.e. by hanging weight from the tip of the blade and checking how much weight it would take before it would bend out of shape. BTW the markings on some of the early Soviet Shashkas meant just that: i.e. 15КГ or 17КГ meaning 15 or 17 kilograms, before the blade would not bend back to its original form completely. So one CAN and SHOULD try to bend the blade, while trying to determine the quality of the steel, without being afraid to break it. And if your shashka doesn't bend more than 30 degrees and spring back completely than it's a fake for sure. I would not really hang any weights from my blades for sure, and if the blade is too old or valuable I just leave them be, but I have a very old Caucasian Shashka that can be bend almost into a circle without any damage to the blade. And bunch of other Russian and European swords and daggers that will bend to a certain degree. As one old sayings goes "a shashka should be as elastic as a vine..."

But I digress. I will probably start a new thread about the elasticity of the bladed weapons, with the moderators' permission of course, as soon as I have enough material to do so. In the meantime I will try to learn more about the Kris and Keris, because I find these weapons very fascinating. Thanks again.

P.S. Here are some photos of the markings that I was talking about. The first one is a real mark of a 1927 NKVD Shaska, while the second is a fake Shashka with a wrong mark, because it reads 18KP which doesn't make any sense.

[David]

Originally Posted by arsendaday

So one CAN and SHOULD try to bend the blade, while trying to determine the quality of the steel, without being afraid to break it.

Remind me to keep you far away from my collection of antique blades.
Seriously though, i am afraid that the reason i collect keris is not to determine the degree of strength in the steel. I would never risk bending one of my blades. Testing new blades that come off the production line for service as you mention with Soviet Shashkas make some sense, however i would not recommend that anyone ever put antique weapons they care about though stress or cut testing.
Obviously keris and kris were not made to be as flexible as the Shashka and i don't see any purpose in putting them through such testing.

[arsendaday]

Originally Posted by David

Remind me to keep you far away from my collection of antique blades.
Seriously though, i am afraid that the reason i collect keris is not to determine the degree of strength in the steel. I would never risk bending one of my blades. Testing new blades that come off the production line for service as you mention with Soviet Shashkas make some sense, however i would not recommend that anyone ever put antique weapons they care about though stress or cut testing.
Obviously keris and kris were not made to be as flexible as the Shashka and i don't see any purpose in putting them through such testing.

LOL, I promise I will not bend any more kris or keris. I too like them for what they are, a beautiful piece of culture and tradition, artfully incorporated into a weapon. I was just wandering if that's how they should be.

[VANDOO]

I WOULD THINK BENDING THE INDONESIAN OR MALAY KERIS OR ANY PARMOR BLADE TO BE ESPECIALLY RISKY DUE TO THE WAY THEY ARE MADE. I HAVE SEEN A TIP BROKEN OFF JUST FROM DROPPING A BLADE ON ITS TIP. SOME KERIS HAVE A STEEL CENTER WITH APPLIED PARMOR LAYERS ON BOTH SIDES WHICH COULD POSSIBLY SEPARATE OR BREAK. THE TANG OR PESKI IS OFTEN NOT TEMPERED AND CAN BEND AND STAY BENT OR BREAK AS WELL.
THE MORO KRIS MAY HAVE A PATTERNED OR WATERED STEEL BLADE BUT NOT A PARMOR BLADE AND APPARENTLY IS NOT BRITTLE AS I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY BROKEN EXAMPLES EVEN OF THOSE WITH BULLET HOLES AND DEEP CUTS TO THE EDGES. THERE ARE MONO STEEL MORO KRIS AS WELL MOSTLY MADE DURING SPANISH AND AMERICAN OCCUPATION ESPECIALLY WW2 AND LATER. JUST SOME GENERAL OBSERVATIONS ON KERIS AND KRIS.

[arsendaday]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I WOULD THINK BENDING THE INDONESIAN OR MALAY KERIS OR ANY PARMOR BLADE TO BE ESPECIALLY RISKY DUE TO THE WAY THEY ARE MADE. I HAVE SEEN A TIP BROKEN OFF JUST FROM DROPPING A BLADE ON ITS TIP. SOME KERIS HAVE A STEEL CENTER WITH APPLIED PARMOR LAYERS ON BOTH SIDES WHICH COULD POSSIBLY SEPARATE OR BREAK. THE TANG OR PESKI IS OFTEN NOT TEMPERED AND CAN BEND AND STAY BENT OR BREAK AS WELL.

Thank you! And that's exactly why I started this "bending" subject. Aside from keris' looks and religious or spiritual aspects, a keris is, first of all, a weapon. And if your weapon can bend or brake during a fight than how useful is it really. What I want to find out about these "daggers" is if they were always made this way, or at some point in the past, due to a shift from a weapon to a religious and/or traditional symbol, the blacksmiths just stopped making them battle-worthy and only concentrated on the looks. It happened to Caucasian kindjals and at some point they were even making kindjals with a beautiful and expensive handles and sheaths (from silver or ivory) and an aluminum blade. Just a wall hanger.
So my question is if anybody owns, or has seen a keris with a blade that is of high quality steel and which will be able to withstand a battle.

[David]

Originally Posted by arsendaday

So my question is if anybody owns, or has seen a keris with a blade that is of high quality steel and which will be able to withstand a battle.

I would suggest that if you really want an answer that you approach the keris crowd with this subject on the keris forum.
My quick answer is that both purely talismanic and/or status blades have been made for a very long time as well as the "battle ready" variety, but keep in mind the way in which a keris is used martially (as a stabbing weapon) does not require the same qualities to hold up in a fight as a slashing or chopping edged weapon does.

[Battara]

And most older pre-20 century Moro kris were battle ready as well as talismanic, and laminated. Vandoo is correct in that in much later versions the quality often dropped. Moro kris were more slashing weapons and not stabbers.

[VANDOO]

ON THE KERIS FORUM YOU WILL FIND LOTS OF INFORMATION ON INDONESIAN AND MALAY KERIS DAGGERS. THE MORO PHILIPPINE AND MALAY SUDANG, SWORD FORMS OF KRIS WILL BE FOUND ON THIS FORUM. THERE IS QUITE A BIT OF DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO BOTH IN FORM, FUNCTION AS WELL AS SPIRITUAL BELIEFS.
THE KERIS DAGGERS ARE HELD BY THE BLADE WITH THE FINGERS WITH THE HANDLE CRADLED IN THE PALM. THE HANDLE IS LEFT LOOSE SO THE BLADE CAN TURN SLIGHTLY TO FIT THE HAND BETTER AND ACCOMMODATE THE THRUST. IT IS DESIGNED FOR A STRAIGHT IN AND OUT THRUST. THE PARMOR OF THE BLADE IS ROUGH NOT SMOOTH LIKE MOST DAGGER BLADES SO A RAGGED WOUND WOULD RESULT. THE TANG IS NOT DESIGNED FOR STRENGTH SO WAS NOT MADE STRONG AS A KERIS WAS HANDLED WITH FINESSE NOT BRUTE STRENGTH. IN EARLY ENCOUNTERS ABOARD SHIPS BELAYING PINS WERE SAID TO BE EFFECTIVE AGAINST THE KERIS AS A HEAVY BLOW FROM THE SIDE OFTEN BENT OR BROKE THE PESKI (TANG) OR BLADE.

[arsendaday]

After all of your explanations it's making a lot of sense now! Thanks

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

Moro kris were more slashing weapons and not stabbers.

Arsendaday,
agree with Battara, here is a close-up picture kris from a kris of my collection which has seen serious fights, the edges have a lot of nicks as sign of this.

[arsendaday]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Arsendaday,
agree with Battara, here is a close-up picture kris from a kris of my collection which has seen serious fights, the edges have a lot of nicks as sign of this.

I see Sajen, can you please post the picture of the whole kris. It seems to be a cool one. Thanks.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by arsendaday

I see Sajen, can you please post the picture of the whole kris. It seems to be a cool one. Thanks.

Hello Arsendaday,

thank you, have a look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=kris

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

Good example Sajen!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

Good example Sajen!