ALGERIAN FLINTLOCK LONG GUN

stenoyab · 14th February 2016, 11:04 AM

Heres the photos of mine, I also found photos of another near twin to yours with the same style lockplate sold via auction, it also had wire bound barrel and the extra wood butt.

rickystl · 14th February 2016, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stenoyab

Heres the photos of mine, I also found photos of another near twin to yours with the same style lockplate sold via auction, it also had wire bound barrel and the extra wood butt.

Hi Jeff.
WOW!! Thanks for posting your Algerian gun. Yes, that's what the butt caps typically look like. Your front sling ring is atteched exactly like mine. Is that wire or cord wrap on yours?

Now, your gun is super interesting, especially the LOCK !!! That lock is styled exactly like a late 17th century Portuguese lock. Very Cool !!!! Only the second one I've ever seen with this lock style. And the other one was also mounted on an Algerian gun. The Portuguese locks were styled somewhat like the Spanish miquelet locks, but mounted the mainsprings internally rather than externally on the lockplates. And the "dog" style saftey positioned in front of the hammer instead of behind the hammer as most European locks. I'm almost sure that's a Potuguese lock that was locally decorated. Very, very neat. Thanks for posting this one. Very jealous. Wish I owned it. LOL

An interesting side note about your lock: During the late 1800's and early 1900's there were a large quantity of crudely made copies of this lock that were made (in Belgium I think) for slae/trade to the natives in SOUTH Africa. Here's a pic of one that I own. Except for the crudeness, note the similarities. Took a bit of work for my gunsmith to get this thing to work right. LOL.

But your's looks like the real thing. That lock looks so good on your gun!!!
Thanks for the extra butt stock pics. It will help my gunsmith making a new one.

Rick.

stenoyab · 14th February 2016, 08:53 PM

Interesting info regards the lock, I tried to remove mine to post a rear photo (and for my own interest), but one of the screws is stuck fast. so will put some oil on it and leave alone for a while.

Its wire on mine, but very much in the style of string/cord. Very fine multi core wires.

Have to confess I bought mine purely because of the crude lock and the sling, had no idea it was interesting to anyone beyond me.
Mine has no inlay, and only a very small amount of decoration.

rickystl · 15th February 2016, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stenoyab

Interesting info regards the lock, I tried to remove mine to post a rear photo (and for my own interest), but one of the screws is stuck fast. so will put some oil on it and leave alone for a while.

Its wire on mine, but very much in the style of string/cord. Very fine multi core wires.

Have to confess I bought mine purely because of the crude lock and the sling, had no idea it was interesting to anyone beyond me.
Mine has no inlay, and only a very small amount of decoration.

Hi Jeff.
Yes, keep adding the penetrating oil every week and trying again. It would be great to see the inside of the lock. It may be a locally made copy (?) But from the outside, I think it may be a genuine Portuguese made lock, that was decorated locally. The inside of the lock will be the clue. Of course, the lock could have been used at a latter date. But is the lock is European made, it would still place your gun in an early period. Possibly pre-1800.
Rick.

stenoyab · 15th February 2016, 11:27 AM

Hi Rick,

Got the lock out.

Be interested to know if you think it is made in Europe or North Africa now you can see more.

Jeff

rickystl · 16th February 2016, 02:48 AM

Hi Jeff.

Hmmm......it's really a bit hard to tell if Europen or a locally made copy. Notice the three (3) screw lock. Which is a very early feature like a Snaphaunce. Often the screws are a clue on the inside of the lock. But hard to tell here. But I'm going out on a limb here and say it was originally a European made lock. Only because I've never seen a locally made "copy" of a Portuguese lock. It is very cool !!!

Rick.

Philip · 17th February 2016, 07:22 AM

Ricky and Sten,

Thanks for posting photos of the interior and exterior of your locks. Mechanically, what you guys have is a Portuguese hybrid design called "fecho meio a portuguesa e meio a francesa" -- a lock half in the Portuguese style, half French. These were in vogue during the latter 17th and into the following century.

The Portuguese component consists of what you see on the exterior: a miquelet-style hammer with pivoting dog and the odd angular frizzen-spring. These are derived from the purely Portuguese "fecho de molinhas" or spring lock, which first appeared in the closing decades of the 16th cent. and remained popular for another 175 years in Portugal. The molinhas lock boasted a rather complex sear arrangement which was probably influenced by earlier Iberian wheellocks. The important thing to note is that the molinhas always had an internal mainspring; there is another Portuguese lock called the "fecho de anselmo" which has a large exterior spring which presses downward like that of the Italian "alla romana" locks, but don't let me get carried away and start confusing you!

The French component is what you see inside the lockplate. The "guts" are those of the classic "French" flintlock which was to become the norm in most of Western Europe, plus Britain and America, from the late 17th through early 19th centuries. Note here that the Portuguese version incorporates the French mechanism at its earliest and most unrefined level of development -- the tumbler is not supported by a bridle as with later locks. This has functional consequences since it makes the mechanism prone to falling out of adjustment as parts wear down with repeated use.

The indigenous flintlocks of Portugal are unique in a number of respects, with no exact parallels outside the country. For one reason or another, they never gained traction outside the country, and even in their birthplace the French flintlock along with Italian and Spanish-style miquelets were to eclipse all of them as the 18th cent. wore on. Contrast this to the Castilian miquelet "de patilla" which was used throughout the Ottoman Empire and Iran, or the Spanish "agujeta" lock which you see on the majority of Algerian guns.

However, enough of the fechos de molinhas and the Luso-French hybrids were on guns brought by the Portuguese to sub-saharan Africa that factories in Liege, Belgium which produced cheap trade guns for the African market before World War I also cranked out very rough versions of these locks for export. One of the locks in your photos, the rather newish-looking one, is undoubtedly from this production.

14th February 2016, 11:04 AM	#1
stenoyab Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43	Heres the photos of mine, I also found photos of another near twin to yours with the same style lockplate sold via auction, it also had wire bound barrel and the extra wood butt. Attached Images

15th February 2016, 11:27 AM	#5
stenoyab Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43	Hi Rick, Got the lock out. Be interested to know if you think it is made in Europe or North Africa now you can see more. Jeff Attached Images

17th February 2016, 07:22 AM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Portuguese style lock Ricky and Sten, Thanks for posting photos of the interior and exterior of your locks. Mechanically, what you guys have is a Portuguese hybrid design called "fecho meio a portuguesa e meio a francesa" -- a lock half in the Portuguese style, half French. These were in vogue during the latter 17th and into the following century. The Portuguese component consists of what you see on the exterior: a miquelet-style hammer with pivoting dog and the odd angular frizzen-spring. These are derived from the purely Portuguese "fecho de molinhas" or spring lock, which first appeared in the closing decades of the 16th cent. and remained popular for another 175 years in Portugal. The molinhas lock boasted a rather complex sear arrangement which was probably influenced by earlier Iberian wheellocks. The important thing to note is that the molinhas always had an internal mainspring; there is another Portuguese lock called the "fecho de anselmo" which has a large exterior spring which presses downward like that of the Italian "alla romana" locks, but don't let me get carried away and start confusing you! The French component is what you see inside the lockplate. The "guts" are those of the classic "French" flintlock which was to become the norm in most of Western Europe, plus Britain and America, from the late 17th through early 19th centuries. Note here that the Portuguese version incorporates the French mechanism at its earliest and most unrefined level of development -- the tumbler is not supported by a bridle as with later locks. This has functional consequences since it makes the mechanism prone to falling out of adjustment as parts wear down with repeated use. The indigenous flintlocks of Portugal are unique in a number of respects, with no exact parallels outside the country. For one reason or another, they never gained traction outside the country, and even in their birthplace the French flintlock along with Italian and Spanish-style miquelets were to eclipse all of them as the 18th cent. wore on. Contrast this to the Castilian miquelet "de patilla" which was used throughout the Ottoman Empire and Iran, or the Spanish "agujeta" lock which you see on the majority of Algerian guns. However, enough of the fechos de molinhas and the Luso-French hybrids were on guns brought by the Portuguese to sub-saharan Africa that factories in Liege, Belgium which produced cheap trade guns for the African market before World War I also cranked out very rough versions of these locks for export. One of the locks in your photos, the rather newish-looking one, is undoubtedly from this production.

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14th February 2016, 08:53 PM	#3
stenoyab Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43	Interesting info regards the lock, I tried to remove mine to post a rear photo (and for my own interest), but one of the screws is stuck fast. so will put some oil on it and leave alone for a while. Its wire on mine, but very much in the style of string/cord. Very fine multi core wires. Have to confess I bought mine purely because of the crude lock and the sling, had no idea it was interesting to anyone beyond me. Mine has no inlay, and only a very small amount of decoration.

16th February 2016, 02:48 AM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,629	Hi Jeff. Hmmm......it's really a bit hard to tell if Europen or a locally made copy. Notice the three (3) screw lock. Which is a very early feature like a Snaphaunce. Often the screws are a clue on the inside of the lock. But hard to tell here. But I'm going out on a limb here and say it was originally a European made lock. Only because I've never seen a locally made "copy" of a Portuguese lock. It is very cool !!! Rick.