MOST DESIRED OCEANIC WAR CLUBS 3: FIJI

VANDOO · 28th January 2016, 10:53 PM

PICTURE #1 & #2. ARE THE ONLY EXAMPLES OF TOTOKIA CLUBS WITH A SPIKE FASHIONED FROM A SPERM WHALE TOOTH THAT I HAVE PICTURES OF. IT BRINGS UP THE QUESTION WAS OTHER HARD MATERIALS EVER USED TO MAKE OR REPLACE A BROKEN SPIKE ON THIS FORM OF CLUB. SHELL AND BONE WOULD HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE AND PERHAPS STONE AND LATER IRON. IS ANYONE AWARE OF SUCH VARIATIONS IN MUSEUMS?
#3. THE PICTURE IN THE POST ABOVE SHOWS WHAT MAY BE AN EXAMPLE OF THE RARE VUTU OR QUADRANGLE CLUB FORM. I HAVE MADE A CLOSE UP BUT IT IS STILL FAR FROM CERTAIN BUT IT WOULD BE COOL TO HAVE AN OLD PICTURE OF ONE. PICTURE #6 OLD VUTU CLUB FOR COMPARISON.
WHILE I AM ASKING QUESTIONS PICTURE #4 & #5. ARE OF A OLD FIJI OBJECT DESCRIBED AS A CEREMONIAL SCEPTER 17 INCHES LONG. IN MANY TRIBAL SOCIETY'S THEY HAVE USED MESSENGERS TO RUN FROM ONE KINGDOM TO ANOTHER CARYING A MESSAGE IN A STICK ONLY TO BE DELIVERED TO THE PERSON IT WAS FOR. WAS THIS METHOD EVER USED IN POLYNESIAN SOCIETY'S OR DID THEY JUST GIVE A VERBAL MESSAGE IF WRITING WAS NOT KNOWN.? IT COULD ALSO BE THE CHIEF'S FAN HANDLE.

Houkura · 1st February 2016, 03:21 PM

Thought I'd share one of my Fijian clubs. Nice Totokia deaccessioned from Haggerty Art Museum at Marquette University. Found at a decorators auction in Chicago several years ago.

VANDOO · 1st February 2016, 05:27 PM

A VERY FINE OLDER EXAMPLE WITH NICE PATINA AND CARVING.

IT APPEARS TO BE OF A REASONABLE SIZE NOT ONE OF THE VERY LARGE ONES WITH A GRIP AS BIG AROUND AS THE BIG END OF A BASEBALL BAT. WHAT ARE ITS MEASUREMENTS?. THANKS FOR SHARING AND ADDING IT TO THE REFERENCE.

Houkura · 1st February 2016, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

A VERY FINE OLDER EXAMPLE WITH NICE PATINA AND CARVING.

IT APPEARS TO BE OF A REASONABLE SIZE NOT ONE OF THE VERY LARGE ONES WITH A GRIP AS BIG AROUND AS THE BIG END OF A BASEBALL BAT. WHAT ARE ITS MEASUREMENTS?. THANKS FOR SHARING AND ADDING IT TO THE REFERENCE.

It's actually pretty massive. Hard to swing (unless you are a huge Fijian warrior). I've seen bigger but yeah quite large. 90cm long, spiked head is about 17cm, spur is 11cm and handle is about 15cm circumference.

I've really enjoyed your posts here-thanks for taking the time. Lots of great information. You even have one of my clubs in one of the posts! It's a very small Culacula club that has a handle the size of an Ula handle and a small club head. I will try to find it and take a photo...it may be in my storage locker...

fireiceviper · 4th February 2016, 06:39 PM

Looks like a good one Houkura!

Perhaps a good idea to clean this thread (or sort) it by real and tourist? because there are a lot of fake or tourist clubs in this thread!

kronckew · 4th February 2016, 07:33 PM

i disagree, current production clubs that would be functional had they still been used in local wars or ceremonies are still artistic and desireable if traditionally made and carved in traditional patterns and skill are for me, OK. crudely made toys are another thing.heck, many items made in the 19c worldwide were made for those who travel, sometimes even better than modern ones. who buys them is not as important as who made them and how historically accurate are they. we do need to keep out the junk and deliberate frauds, unless so marked for education...

VANDOO · 4th February 2016, 07:51 PM

THIS THREAD IS DESIGNED TO ALWAYS BE A WORK IN PROGRESS, ADDING ITEMS AS WE GO ALONG SO A ORDERED INDEX WOULD HAVE TO BE CONSTANTLY UPDATED. I OFTEN PLACE NEW CLUBS AND OLD CLUBS AS WELL AS VARIOUS FORMS TOGETHER AS THAT'S WHAT I HAVE ON HAND AT THE TIME.

I ALWAYS TRY AND GIVE ANY AVAILABLE INFORMATION OR MY OPINION ON THE AGE OF VARIOUS EXAMPLES.
THE OBJECT OF THIS TOPIC AND MY OTHERS IS TO PRESERVE AND FORM A ROUGH REFERENCE PRESENTING AS MANY TYPES AND VARIATIONS AS I CAN FIND AS WE GO ALONG.
THE REFERENCE IS INTENDED TO BE AVAILABLE TO ALL SO FEEL FREE TO ADD TO IT OR PERHAPS TAKE PICTURES FROM IT AND ORGANIZE THEM IN ANOTHER POST ON SPECIFIC FORMS OR AGE. THE FIRST POSTS ARE SOMEWHAT ORGANIZED BY TYPE BUT AFTER THAT I TRY TO ADD ANY INTERESTING NEW INFORMATION AND EXAMPLES I FIND. TO GROW AND ADD TO THE REFERENCE BASE IS THE PURPOSE OF SUCH A POST NOT TO PRESENT AN ORDERLY ARTICLE BUT HOPEFULLY GOOD ARTICLES MAY COME FROM IT.
I KEEP HOPING A FORUM MEMBER WILL SURFACE IN FIJI AND ADD ANY PICTURES OF WHAT IS CURRENTLY BEING MADE AS WELL AS INFORMATION FROM THE MUSEUM.

fireiceviper · 4th February 2016, 10:33 PM

Current clubs are all made for tourists and have been for a long time now, the old culture has long gone with the advance of Christianity in Fiji.

The old clubs that where made where made following the old traditions (or use), the new clubs are made for money (and some of them not in Fiji!) without the carver (or machine) even knowing what he or she is making and why (that's why most modern clubs are so easy to spot!)(except for fakes made to fool people).

The reason why i don't consider them equal is because one is a product of the Fijian culture while the other is a product of Western capitalism. The Fiji form could be made anywhere in the world it wouldn't matter...the original culture is no more...

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

28th January 2016, 10:53 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	PICTURE #1 & #2. ARE THE ONLY EXAMPLES OF TOTOKIA CLUBS WITH A SPIKE FASHIONED FROM A SPERM WHALE TOOTH THAT I HAVE PICTURES OF. IT BRINGS UP THE QUESTION WAS OTHER HARD MATERIALS EVER USED TO MAKE OR REPLACE A BROKEN SPIKE ON THIS FORM OF CLUB. SHELL AND BONE WOULD HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE AND PERHAPS STONE AND LATER IRON. IS ANYONE AWARE OF SUCH VARIATIONS IN MUSEUMS? #3. THE PICTURE IN THE POST ABOVE SHOWS WHAT MAY BE AN EXAMPLE OF THE RARE VUTU OR QUADRANGLE CLUB FORM. I HAVE MADE A CLOSE UP BUT IT IS STILL FAR FROM CERTAIN BUT IT WOULD BE COOL TO HAVE AN OLD PICTURE OF ONE. PICTURE #6 OLD VUTU CLUB FOR COMPARISON. WHILE I AM ASKING QUESTIONS PICTURE #4 & #5. ARE OF A OLD FIJI OBJECT DESCRIBED AS A CEREMONIAL SCEPTER 17 INCHES LONG. IN MANY TRIBAL SOCIETY'S THEY HAVE USED MESSENGERS TO RUN FROM ONE KINGDOM TO ANOTHER CARYING A MESSAGE IN A STICK ONLY TO BE DELIVERED TO THE PERSON IT WAS FOR. WAS THIS METHOD EVER USED IN POLYNESIAN SOCIETY'S OR DID THEY JUST GIVE A VERBAL MESSAGE IF WRITING WAS NOT KNOWN.? IT COULD ALSO BE THE CHIEF'S FAN HANDLE. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 28th January 2016 at 11:03 PM.

1st February 2016, 03:21 PM	#2
Houkura Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 5	Totokia Thought I'd share one of my Fijian clubs. Nice Totokia deaccessioned from Haggerty Art Museum at Marquette University. Found at a decorators auction in Chicago several years ago. Attached Images

1st February 2016, 05:27 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY FINE OLDER EXAMPLE WITH NICE PATINA AND CARVING. IT APPEARS TO BE OF A REASONABLE SIZE NOT ONE OF THE VERY LARGE ONES WITH A GRIP AS BIG AROUND AS THE BIG END OF A BASEBALL BAT. WHAT ARE ITS MEASUREMENTS?. THANKS FOR SHARING AND ADDING IT TO THE REFERENCE.

4th February 2016, 06:39 PM	#5
fireiceviper Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 87	Looks like a good one Houkura! Perhaps a good idea to clean this thread (or sort) it by real and tourist? because there are a lot of fake or tourist clubs in this thread!

4th February 2016, 07:33 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	i disagree, current production clubs that would be functional had they still been used in local wars or ceremonies are still artistic and desireable if traditionally made and carved in traditional patterns and skill are for me, OK. crudely made toys are another thing.heck, many items made in the 19c worldwide were made for those who travel, sometimes even better than modern ones. who buys them is not as important as who made them and how historically accurate are they. we do need to keep out the junk and deliberate frauds, unless so marked for education...

4th February 2016, 07:51 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THIS THREAD IS DESIGNED TO ALWAYS BE A WORK IN PROGRESS, ADDING ITEMS AS WE GO ALONG SO A ORDERED INDEX WOULD HAVE TO BE CONSTANTLY UPDATED. I OFTEN PLACE NEW CLUBS AND OLD CLUBS AS WELL AS VARIOUS FORMS TOGETHER AS THAT'S WHAT I HAVE ON HAND AT THE TIME. I ALWAYS TRY AND GIVE ANY AVAILABLE INFORMATION OR MY OPINION ON THE AGE OF VARIOUS EXAMPLES. THE OBJECT OF THIS TOPIC AND MY OTHERS IS TO PRESERVE AND FORM A ROUGH REFERENCE PRESENTING AS MANY TYPES AND VARIATIONS AS I CAN FIND AS WE GO ALONG. THE REFERENCE IS INTENDED TO BE AVAILABLE TO ALL SO FEEL FREE TO ADD TO IT OR PERHAPS TAKE PICTURES FROM IT AND ORGANIZE THEM IN ANOTHER POST ON SPECIFIC FORMS OR AGE. THE FIRST POSTS ARE SOMEWHAT ORGANIZED BY TYPE BUT AFTER THAT I TRY TO ADD ANY INTERESTING NEW INFORMATION AND EXAMPLES I FIND. TO GROW AND ADD TO THE REFERENCE BASE IS THE PURPOSE OF SUCH A POST NOT TO PRESENT AN ORDERLY ARTICLE BUT HOPEFULLY GOOD ARTICLES MAY COME FROM IT. I KEEP HOPING A FORUM MEMBER WILL SURFACE IN FIJI AND ADD ANY PICTURES OF WHAT IS CURRENTLY BEING MADE AS WELL AS INFORMATION FROM THE MUSEUM.

4th February 2016, 10:33 PM	#8
fireiceviper Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 87	Current clubs are all made for tourists and have been for a long time now, the old culture has long gone with the advance of Christianity in Fiji. The old clubs that where made where made following the old traditions (or use), the new clubs are made for money (and some of them not in Fiji!) without the carver (or machine) even knowing what he or she is making and why (that's why most modern clubs are so easy to spot!)(except for fakes made to fool people). The reason why i don't consider them equal is because one is a product of the Fijian culture while the other is a product of Western capitalism. The Fiji form could be made anywhere in the world it wouldn't matter...the original culture is no more...