Kris question to the knowledgeables

[MABAGANI]

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm

[Sang Keris]

Pusaka ( D C ) , i really don't care about the discussion , but please DO NOT use my keris picture for model without permission ...!

[Spunjer]

thanks for the link, mabagani!

[Pusaka]

Sorry Sang (W H) I did not think you would mind since you post them on ebay often, but sorry I should have asked you first. You know I sent you an email but you did not respond.

[Mans]

Hi Dear all,

Indeed that the origin of the keris has been debate for a long time by many people. They believed that the keris came from along time ago and they didn’t want to prove it. They just believed that as a culture.

In the world of the Jawanese keris, old keris from Budha era is very simple. It has no Kembang Kacang, Greneng or Ron Dha. Usually just Sogokan and Kruwingan. Then, on Kediri and Singosari period (11th-13th century), the keris made with more detail. Some ricikans as the features of the keris to be made. The religion of Singosari and Kediri people are Hindu and Budha. On the Majapahit till Mataram period (13th-19th century), the keris made with more complete. After Majapahit period, the Islamic culture has beginning.

So, we knew that the keris came without Kembang Kacang and Ron Dha, just simple shape, but in the other side, some keris has it with more detail ricikans like Ron Dha, Greneng, Sogokan, Blumbungan, Kembang Kacang, ect.. .. which has many senses, reasons, and can be interpretated as anything from each histories or backgrounds. Also the keris influenced by many religions and cultures on the way of the keris it self.

So, why we just talking about the Ron Dha and didn’t give argumentations about the other ricikans ? If we want to debate just about the ricikans, we must talking about the another ricikans too as the overwhole aspects on the keris it self. Then, how if we talk about the Sogokan or Blumbungan ? Where it came from ? Or which the religions has influenced this ricikans ? So, if the RonDha and Kembang Kacang or Greneng just stand alone, it can’t be used to represent where the keris from or the period of the keris, also which the religious or culture which influenced the keris.

Pusaka posted the pictures from New Balinese Keris which made with complete ricikans. I think it can’t be used to represent the old keris. And now, I posted the keris from Old period (before 10th century) till Mataram period (about 18th century). I hope useful to continuing this discussion.

Regards,

Mans.

Note :
Pusaka, you said that the pictures (the Balinese keris) which you used on this thread is for eBay ((For example look at this Gajah from an ebay keris a while back. I think its a good example)) . I didn’t think so, because this keris has never listed in eBay. I knew the man who has this keris. He said that he send you the pictures via P.M. Did you has permission from him before ? Sorry, just to clarification your wrote.

Ups, Sang Keris has told it

[Pusaka]

Nice photos Mans but because the markings are so worn its quite difficult to know what the markings on some of them would have looked like originally.

I would be more then happy to hear other peoples theory’s about the meaning of the marks. If you do think it just represents a letter then explain its meaning.

[VANDOO]

AS WITH ALL DISCUSSIONS PERTAINING TO THE KERIS/KRIS THERE IS MUCH CONTROVERSY AND IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO JUST FOCUS ON ONE ASPECT IN ITS EVOLUTION. THE KERIS CONTINUES TO EVOLVE TODAY BUT I THINK THE MORE RECENT CHANGES HAVE LESS TO DO WITH SPIRITUAL AND MAGICAL MATTERS AS THEY DID IN OLD TIMES. I WOULD THERORIZE THAT THE FIRST BIG CHANGE IN THE EVOLUTION OF THE KERIS WAS THE SEPARATION OF THE GANJA FROM THE BLADE AS IT IS VERY LIKELY THAT THE FIRST KERIS HAD ONLY A FAIRLY SIMPLE ONE PIECE BLADE. THIS PROBABLY CAME ABOUT DUE TO SOME SPIRITUAL OR MAGICAL BELIEF, I COULD MAKE MANY GUESSES AS TO WHY THIS WAS DONE, BUT AS THEY COULD NEVER BE PROVEN AND WOULD ONLY MUDDY THE WATER I WILL REFRAIN.
THE LATER MODIFICATIONS TO THE BLADE COULD HAVE BEEN DONE FOR MANY REASONS, 1. TO INDICATE THE TRIBE OR EMPIRE. 2. TAILSMANIC PROTECTION 3. TO SHOW REVERENCE TO A CERTIAN DIETY AND GAIN THEIR PROTECTION AND POWER. THERE ARE MANY POSSIBILITYS, BUT I DON'T THINK IT WAS DONE JUST FOR DECORATION OR TO ADD TO THE EFFECTIVE FIGHTING QUALITYS OF THE KERIS.

QUESTIONS WHERE IS THE POWER OF THE KERIS SAID TO RESIDE IN THE BLADE OR THE GANJA?
IF THE POWER IS IN THE BLADE WOULD THE GANJA BE THERE TO PROTECT THE WIELDER FROM THAT POWER OR TO CONTROL IT. ?

SO MANY QUESTIONS AND SO LITTLE OLD DOCUMENTED INFORMATION!

[Mans]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Nice photos Mans but because the markings are so worn its quite difficult to know what the markings on some of them would have looked like originally.

I would be more then happy to hear other peoples theory’s about the meaning of the marks. If you do think it just represents a letter then explain its meaning.

Thanks Pusaka,
I think some forumities has told about the meaning of the marks on the keris.
In here, I just want to give the example of the keris from the old and distinguishing with the keris from next period. Why the old keris made with no ricikans as the keris from next generations Just the simple shape. Perhaps because on old period, their appreciation about the art or philosophy just like that Thats because perhaps, they just want the Tuah or something else in the Anmism and Dynamism faith.

So, if we want to know from where the keris, when it made, or which the culture or religions has influenced, we must know about the keris as overwhole aspects (Jawa = Pasikutan). Specifically on the iron, pamor and technique of forging. Not just the Dha which you try to analyzed. Its just the one aspect.

We can to keep changing some symbols or numeral to get the matching with the Ricikan on the keris. But how with another ricikans which has no compatible with any symbols like Ada-Ada or Kruwingan or Sogokan

So, I didn't think so that your theory about the Dha and Greneng can be used to give the reason that the keris came from India, Indonesia or somewhere else. Many region has self histories. So that why if we want to learn the keris, we must put it on the clear locus and focus.

For another example : http://www.diskusi.fotopic.net/c534452.html
The two keris at there came from Singosari (small) and Bangkinang (Riau / Sumatera). Its has different lenght, the iron forge ect, but also has similarities. So, can we analyzed that just from Ricikans ? I didn't think so. We can analyze more clear if we know about the journey of Singosari people to Sumatera and the other hand at past.

So, go back to Antonio questions, perhaps any forumities known the journey of Moro or Moslem people at there, where and where Did they has connections with India or Indonesia or etc Also we can connecting the story by period.

I just know (in the Jawanese history) that Sriwijaya Kingdom at Palembang and Majapahit Kingdom at East Jawa has the region till Moro about 9th century and 14th century. So, can we said that the Sriwijaya and Majapahit influencing the Moro Keris ? Then cultures of the Moro people continuing their appreciations about the art of the keris till now (free from religion values)

[MABAGANI]

As mentioned, from the proto keris, forms branch off depending on the timeline and region, so it would be interesting to see a family tree with the various keris and kris to get a clearer understanding when symbols and types took place. In regards to the Moro kris, evidence from artifacts and written materials reveal ties to Indian culture and parallel interconnection to Indonesian kingdoms. Its also important to take in account cultural relationships to China throughout Moro history. In the early 15th century Sulu "kings" were recognized by Chinese royals when an entourage paid a visit to the mainland. Of interest, there is a village in China that trace their heritage to the early kings, one of the kings died on the voyage, some of the relatives stayed behind and the following generations to this day still take care of the tomb of their ancestor. The conversion to Islam in Mindanao and Sulu as well as the parts of the Visayas and Luzon began in the mid 15th and 16th centuries. From the early proto keris two distinct forms develop into what we call here the kris and the barung swords in the Moro regions.
http://www.geocities.com/sinupan/batara.htm
http://www.china-sd.net/eng/sdtravel/scenery/26.asp
http://www.bangsamoro.info/uploads/photos/26.jpg

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm

Mabagani, thank you for this very interesting website. It is worth viewing just for the wonderful illustration at the bottom of the page. One thing i noticed as i look through each illustration that was driven home every time i came to a grouping of keris was just how unique the form of the keris is. It is unlike ANY of the displayed Indian weapon forms. It is interesting, however to see a feature that IS similar to the keris sogokan on these Indian spearheads, but the asymetric blade and seperate gonjo are features i have seen no where else.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm

Thanks for the link. This collection of material has had several incarnations over the last six years or so. It has popped up with at least three or four different URLs to my knowledge, tending to disappear each time after a few months. So catch it while you can -- a lot of scans, many from Egerton, Stone, and other well known sources.

Ian.

[MABAGANI]

I stumbled across the site searching for early Indian edged weaponry, interesting how the author writes about the influence and continuity of arms and armour through the ages by trade and cultural exchange. Anyone know of sites that show the other weaponry besides keris in the bas reliefs from Southeast Asian ruins? I'd like to compare later forms of blades that may have evolved from ancient periods as the of forging process advanced or changed over time.
http://www.borobudur.tv/temple_index.htm
http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/...bananindex.htm

[Pusaka]

In the Rig Veda Indras thunderbolt weapon is described. It has a notched surface. It is firmly held in Indras hands. It is sthavira (stable) and Dgarnssi (durable). It is a fatal weapon made of a metal called Ayas.
In relation the quote below taken from:

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ma...k_projects.htm

• Rigveda mentions ayas about 10 times – e.g. Indra's horse had the same color as asay. (Assumed to be iron; but Tripathi disagrees because there is also Krishna-ayas, etc in texts.) Also, was iron found in neighboring countries, hence assumed to be from there.
• Refuting the above, Tripathi finds that iron in India is much earlier. Baluchistan cemeteries have iron objects. Some earlier iron in western Asia was meteorite material sculptured as rock/stone carvings, and with no metallurgical processing at all.

If Tripathi is correct and Ayas is meteorite iron then this means that not only do the daggers which Indra holds have wavy blades but they are made from meteorite iron. Which incidentally is durable because it often contains a high nickel content which retards rusting.
Such daggers would have been manufactured for ritual use and it’s probable that they were quite rare. I don’t think that they would have been used for fighting or put on display every day but where probably only used special rituals.
Could this dagger have evolved into the keris? I think we are perhaps making a mistake in thinking that ALL keris are related and therefore evolved from each other. We know that there is a difference between a keris worn everyday and a keris pusaka.
Some keris are thought to have what we may call mystical powers and these keris are certainly not worn in everyday life but only treated with the utmost respect.
I would suggest that these mystical keris would only be used for ritual and never for fighting. I would also suggest that they would probably be well made and elaborately decorated.
Does the keris pusaka descend from Indras ritual weapon? If so it would be considered as a weapon of a god and therefore well respected and only handled by appropriate persons.

[Rick]

Indra is a deity ; how can we make assumptions about the composition of what a deity holds ?

A 'Pusaka' is a cherished heirloom passed on from generation to generation within a family be they rich or poor .
A Pusaka is not necessarily a keris it is a descriptive term ; it can be many other objects .

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by Rick

Indra is a deity ; how can we make assumptions about the composition of what a deity holds ?

A 'Pusaka' is a cherished heirloom passed on from generation to generation within a family be they rich or poor .
A Pusaka is not necessarily a keris it is a descriptive term ; it can be many other objects .

Rick, the Rig Veda tells us that the weapon is made from Ayas, its not an assumption. If indeed Ayas is meteorite iron then we are talking about a blade made from meteorite iron.

About the pusaka keris, I was simply trying to make the point that there is a difference between a keris you wear everyday and a keris pusaka.

[Rick]

The bible tells us that Jonah was swallowed by a whale and Jesus walked on water .
Am I to take this literally ?
I need a little more concrete evidence myself .
Also we are now back to the meteorite iron thing .
Now I won't contest that the keris is descended from Hindu weaponry ; it makes logical sense .
For the rest I personally need more than religious allegory .

As for the pusaka keris ; it does not necessarily have magic power ; rather it may just be an important family heirloom .

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Could this dagger have evolved into the keris? I think we are perhaps making a mistake in thinking that ALL keris are related and therefore evolved from each other. We know that there is a difference between a keris worn everyday and a keris pusaka.
Some keris are thought to have what we may call mystical powers and these keris are certainly not worn in everyday life but only treated with the utmost respect.
I would suggest that these mystical keris would only be used for ritual and never for fighting. I would also suggest that they would probably be well made and elaborately decorated.
Does the keris pusaka descend from Indras ritual weapon? If so it would be considered as a weapon of a god and therefore well respected and only handled by appropriate persons.

Pusaka, one of the authors i recommended to you in my last PM, Margaret Wiemer, wrote an excellent book called "Visible and Invisible Realms" which is essential reading for the understanding of keris pusaka. Indian influences not withstanding, i believe that you might find that the idea of pusaka is a more indigenious one to the Indonesian area. Also you will find that a great many powerful pusaka are completely unadorned and simple looking blades.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

If Tripathi is correct and Ayas is meteorite iron then this means that not only do the daggers which Indra holds have wavy blades but they are made from meteorite iron. Which incidentally is durable because it often contains a high nickel content which retards rusting.

Pusaka, I would be careful at jumping to conclusions, just because meteoritic iron contains nickel, that nickel content alone will "retard" rusting.

Pictures of a Kansas Pallasite (see thread Meteor in the Raw) have shown up from time to time... the small sample I have in my collection has completely rusted away since purchasing it. I also have a sizable chunk of Canyon Diablo (Meteor Crater), an Iron (coarse octahedrite), it actually contains a mineral that will accelerate rusting of the iron when expose to the atmosphere. It is not a pretty thing. Meteorites are not "stainless steel" just because they contain nickel and the iron component will readily rust (if unprotected), even when forged into a blade.

Ataxites contain the highest nickel content (around 16% nickel), I would like to see one that does not rust like any other iron meteorite.
Octahedrites (about 7 to 10% nickel)
Hexahedrites (about 4 to 7% nickel)

Just talk with anyone that trys to protect their meteorite imvestment. It is a challenge.

[Federico]

Oh my, this thread has sure branched from the meaning of (to borrow a keris term) the Rhon Dha on a Moro kris (not keris) to the Indian influences and as is asserted by one forumite, Indian origin of the keris. Ok, so Im jumping back to talking about PI, so mainly kris.

At least for me, I am still partial to the idea that the keris (which later evolves into the kris) came to PI along with Islam (not necessarily the full blown conversion of native populations but rather the early probings of muslim missionaries and traders I feel would be sufficient to bring its presence into the consciousness of Filipinos). Now, while I know it is often asserted that the Javanese empires extended into PI, thus bringing a pre-islamic keris culture into the islands, in other texts Ive read (Im forgetting the names right now) Javanese influence fell short of the totality of PI (eg. some influence on the Southern islands but little to no presence in the North such as Luzon). Does anyone have a good, contemporary book or link that can illustrate the Javanese empires encompassing the Philippines? I know I was surprised when in a class, the text we were using (I believe published in 2004) cut the Javanese reach off before it hit PI. I know that there have been movements in PI Universities to de-emphasize regional influences on early PI history for political reasons, and so dont know if this occurence was a product of politics or is the most current research (while we are limited in researching weapons, at least in academia there is strong emphasis on staying with current research). So any points in the direction of a book that can illustrate the presence of the Javanese empire in PI would be appreciated.

Ok, now since I was talking about why I still am fond of the notion of the keris travelling into PI with Islam, I jumped off that topic, so Ill go back. How far into PI can we really find examples of keris or keris like objects? In Scott's book Barangay, he talks about Visayan and Southern Philippine weaponry, and notes that keris like weapons are found in both, but that the keris are better made in the South. I dont remember for sure if he mentions any presence in the North, but I seem to think that he did not (ok Im being lazy Im tired and dont feel like re-hitting the books at this moment before I get this thought out). So my question is, where can we find keris like weapons (either in text but pics would be awesome) in PI (eg. just the south and central PI or more widespread), and from what time period (I know there are Luzon kris made for the Katipunan but then the Katipunan dredged alot of their history/practices from all over which would not be applicable in a pre-Spanish PI)? At least to me, Scotts descriptions could still be in fitting with a Islamic introduction, as (depending on who you read) there is some merit to the fact that at least on Spanish arrival there were the beginnings of some Islamic inroads into Visayan regions. It would be interesting to compare where the kris form is found, and if there were ever Islamic colonies/missionaries/traders in that region at that time. Oh well...as usual Ive probably made no sense, I really gotta learn to check the forums when I am not super tired.

ps.

I am only talking about PI, and not the origins of keris in general.

[LabanTayo]

Malay inluence in Pamapanga (Province north of Manila).

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~camiling/malay.html

Especially look at the comparison of the word Sundang and Kampilan.


A part of my family is Kapampangan and I remember them saying they are decendants of Malays.

Kapampangan word for sword = Palang

In the PI, L and R are interchangable.

Palang = Parang

Although you say Javanese culture didnt spread that far north, at least Malay culture did, and they had keris too.
I know theres more to research on my end, but thats all for now.

I just found this:

"The ancestors of the Kampampangans came from the Madjapahit Empire at the Malang Region in Central Java. They came with the second wave of Malayan migration - the last of the three prehistoric migrations that took place in the Philippines between 300 to 200 B.C.. These immigrants, led by the Prince Balagtas, settled along the costal areas of Luzon. These areas became the nucleus of the so-called Pampanga Empire, established and consolidated from 1335 to 1400 by Prince Balagtas, the first Pampango sovereign. This empire included all areas in Luzon from Manila up to Cagayan in the north. The coming of the Spaniards led to the eventual disintegration and diminution (decrease) of his empire. "

http://www.geocities.com/pilipinoinj...ilippines.html

[MABAGANI]

Originally Posted by Federico

So any points in the direction of a book that can illustrate the presence of the Javanese empire in PI would be appreciated.

A good read is the book by Patanne, E. P., "The Philippines in the World of Southeast Asia: A Cultural History". The more recent discovery and study of the "Laguna copper plate" dated 900AD tends to support connection to Java and cause a reexamination of theories regarding trade and influence, imho, I'd find it difficult to expect the Philippines to be kept in a vacuum not having the keris until Muslim traders arrive, while other cultural pre Islamic exchanges occur in the form of literature, language, artifacts, and religion, etc. The Philippines is unique in that its positioned in the sea trade route between China and Java or in a larger view, Southeast Asia.