Kris question to the knowledgeables

nechesh · 14th January 2006, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Sorry, what do you mean text 2,3,4 & 5 ?

Pusaka, i believe John is referring to your numbered illustrations.
John, the texts of 2 and 3 are the modern sanskrit letters for AUM linked together side by side to look like a Ron Dha Nunut.
And 4 and 5 are the ron dha and jenggot of the modern keris that Pusaka displayed.

Pusaka · 14th January 2006, 11:17 AM

Nechesh you say that the symbol I used for Om is modern, look again, did I use the modern symbol for Om?
Here is the Tibetan symbol for Om, slightly different in that the second character is inverted. The Tibetan symbol is certainly not modern.

Left: tibet

Mans · 14th January 2006, 02:25 PM

Very interesting thread and debate.....

But, how if the keris revealed came from the Animism and Dynamism period (because the Keris believed has the Tuah or supranatural power) before the Hindu, Budha or Islam period

Then, on the Hindu period, the keris has analyzed an given some symbols as the Ricikans which more real, beauty and has the sense...

So, Hindu, Budha and Islam period just continuing the keris cultures from the past period

.... or, the keris came from Hindu period, but with enthusiasm of Animism and Dynamism soul and pulling out the dogmatic values

nechesh · 14th January 2006, 03:12 PM

Hi Pusaka. Here's a link to the Javanese Alphabet.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/javanese.htm
Take note of the letter Dha. This alphabet dates back to the 4thC. It is certainly derivative of ancient Brahmi and so there is certainly a Vedic connection. But we have yet to find any physical evidence that the "modern" keris, with all it's present ricikan such as the Ron Dha, is older than, say, 14thC. So it seems likely that the Ron Dha was developed in Jawa at that time where regardless of Vedic influences, the Javanese language and alphabet was in full swing. Devanagari script was developed around the 11thC primarily to write Sanskrit from ancient Brahmi script. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/devanagari.htm
This early form of Devanagari was similar, but not exactly like the form with which you are familar.
As far as i know, the Ron Dha has always been related to the Javanese letter Dha in Jawa and the surrounding areas. Though there is clearly a resemblance to the symbol of the AUM i think this is probably just a very interesting coincidence, or perhaps synchonicity. I see no reason why this would be considered secret knowledge or why the Javanese would pretend this feature represented a Dha when it was really secretly the AUM. What is perhaps more occult is the intended meaning of the letter Dha in this circumstance. That might be a more valuable avenue of study.
None of this is to deny that the keris was first developed as weapon of a primarily Vedic culture. As other influences such as Islam moved into the area the keris symbolism evolved and changed. Stil, elements of Jawa's pre-vedic animistic culture persisted as well. The beliefs of the area can never be clearly defined as merely this or that. It is much more complex.

Pusaka · 14th January 2006, 04:31 PM

I used a variant of Om which is not modern by any account. It is difficult to say if the markings on the keris are Sanskrit or Javanese. Remembering that the Javanese alphabet would have been influenced by Sanskrit. If you chose the Javanese then the symbols are meaningless but if you chose the Sanskrit then there is meaning in those markings. One thing for sure is that they have meaning and personally I believe it is a variant of Om, the name of god.

nechesh · 14th January 2006, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

It is difficult to say if the markings on the keris are Sanskrit or Javanese. Remembering that the Javanese alphabet would have been influenced by Sanskrit. If you chose the Javanese then the symbols are meaningless but if you chose the Sanskrit then there is meaning in those markings.

Pusaka, you are certainly welcome to your personal beliefs, but the notion that this symbol is meaningless if it represents the Javanese Dha is somewhat arrogant on your behalf. Just because you are not aware of it's meaning does not imply that such meaning is nonexistent. Do you really think you have such a grasp of the Javanese culture to make such a statement?
Why do think it is difficult to say whether this "symbol" is Sanskrit or Javanese when the Javanese have been saying for centuries that it is indeed Javanese?

Pusaka · 14th January 2006, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Pusaka, you are certainly welcome to your personal beliefs, but the notion that this symbol is meaningless if it represents the Javanese Dha is somewhat arrogant on your behalf. Just because you are not aware of it's meaning does not imply that such meaning is nonexistent. Do you really think you have such a grasp of the Javanese culture to make such a statement?
Why do think it is difficult to say whether this "symbol" is Sanskrit or Javanese when the Javanese have been saying for centuries that it is indeed Javanese?

If the symbol is Javanese it is strange indeed that any Javanese person I asked what it meant they had no clue. There are many Javanese members in this forum and have they revealed what its meaning is? Its meaning is certainly not secret so I question why nobody seams to know the answer to what it actually means. If it is Javanese surely a Javanese person would understand it, but do they?
Using the Javanese alphabet you can account for only one letter, hardly a through explanation is it, what about the rest, can you explain that???

MABAGANI · 14th January 2006, 05:42 PM

If a keris or kris form developed during an Islamic era and region, wouldn't it be considered a Muslim creation? We can make the general statement that the keris originated in Southeast Asia with Hindu/Budhist influences, but depending on certain forms, era and place, etc. wouldn't these variables dictate the specific designation of the creation?

John · 14th January 2006, 04:33 PM

Interesting, though the "dha" shown at the link does not seem to have a pronounced tail of an OM symbol. Still it's intriguing to find a probable Javanese alphabet on such a popular icon as keris yet to be have it's meaning decoded in it's country of origin? So the mystery remains unsolved...

14th January 2006, 11:17 AM	#2
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Nechesh you say that the symbol I used for Om is modern, look again, did I use the modern symbol for Om? Here is the Tibetan symbol for Om, slightly different in that the second character is inverted. The Tibetan symbol is certainly not modern. Left: tibet Attached Images Last edited by Pusaka; 14th January 2006 at 11:39 AM.

14th January 2006, 02:25 PM	#3
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	Very interesting thread and debate..... But, how if the keris revealed came from the Animism and Dynamism period (because the Keris believed has the Tuah or supranatural power) before the Hindu, Budha or Islam period Then, on the Hindu period, the keris has analyzed an given some symbols as the Ricikans which more real, beauty and has the sense... So, Hindu, Budha and Islam period just continuing the keris cultures from the past period .... or, the keris came from Hindu period, but with enthusiasm of Animism and Dynamism soul and pulling out the dogmatic values Last edited by Mans; 14th January 2006 at 02:45 PM.

14th January 2006, 04:31 PM	#5
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I used a variant of Om which is not modern by any account. It is difficult to say if the markings on the keris are Sanskrit or Javanese. Remembering that the Javanese alphabet would have been influenced by Sanskrit. If you chose the Javanese then the symbols are meaningless but if you chose the Sanskrit then there is meaning in those markings. One thing for sure is that they have meaning and personally I believe it is a variant of Om, the name of god. Attached Images

14th January 2006, 05:42 PM	#8
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	origin vs. creation If a keris or kris form developed during an Islamic era and region, wouldn't it be considered a Muslim creation? We can make the general statement that the keris originated in Southeast Asia with Hindu/Budhist influences, but depending on certain forms, era and place, etc. wouldn't these variables dictate the specific designation of the creation?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

14th January 2006, 03:12 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Pusaka. Here's a link to the Javanese Alphabet. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/javanese.htm Take note of the letter Dha. This alphabet dates back to the 4thC. It is certainly derivative of ancient Brahmi and so there is certainly a Vedic connection. But we have yet to find any physical evidence that the "modern" keris, with all it's present ricikan such as the Ron Dha, is older than, say, 14thC. So it seems likely that the Ron Dha was developed in Jawa at that time where regardless of Vedic influences, the Javanese language and alphabet was in full swing. Devanagari script was developed around the 11thC primarily to write Sanskrit from ancient Brahmi script. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/devanagari.htm This early form of Devanagari was similar, but not exactly like the form with which you are familar. As far as i know, the Ron Dha has always been related to the Javanese letter Dha in Jawa and the surrounding areas. Though there is clearly a resemblance to the symbol of the AUM i think this is probably just a very interesting coincidence, or perhaps synchonicity. I see no reason why this would be considered secret knowledge or why the Javanese would pretend this feature represented a Dha when it was really secretly the AUM. What is perhaps more occult is the intended meaning of the letter Dha in this circumstance. That might be a more valuable avenue of study. None of this is to deny that the keris was first developed as weapon of a primarily Vedic culture. As other influences such as Islam moved into the area the keris symbolism evolved and changed. Stil, elements of Jawa's pre-vedic animistic culture persisted as well. The beliefs of the area can never be clearly defined as merely this or that. It is much more complex.

14th January 2006, 04:33 PM	#9
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Interesting, though the "dha" shown at the link does not seem to have a pronounced tail of an OM symbol. Still it's intriguing to find a probable Javanese alphabet on such a popular icon as keris yet to be have it's meaning decoded in it's country of origin? So the mystery remains unsolved...