Keris Madura with Thai influences

[maxbliss888]

I am new to Keris and this hobby is very interesting and addictive as there are so much to learn.

I have come across an interesting Keris in Thailand with a Madura hilt/ Hulu but style Thai for the blade and the shield.

Any comment?

[kai]

Hello Max,

Welcome to the forum!

I have come across an interesting Keris in Thailand with a Madura hilt/ Hulu but style Thai for the blade and the shield.

Close-ups of the blade would be good. From this pic I'd guess this blade to hail from Madura, too.


Just one more comment: While collected in Thailand, there doesn't seem to have ever been any kind of keris culture among the ethnic Thai. Granted, quite a few keris are on display in the Bangkok palaces and occasionally one might have been worn at court but apparently more as a curio item (most were likely diplomatic gifts or war booties).

Thus, I'd avoid to refer to a keris as being "Thai" (as in "style Thai" or "Thai influences"). If anything, these keris are (northern) Malay, ethnically. Keris from southern Thailand seems like a reasonable/neutral description; however, Pattani/etc. would be much more informative IMVHO. We all know that modern state boundaries usually are a result of accumulated historic "accidents" - OTOH we're discussing cultural artefacts here and, thus, focusing on the originating culture does help. Sorry for the rant...

Regards,
Kai

[maxbliss888]

Hi!

Thanks for the clarification.

When I compare the scabbord with those of Indonesia, it looked different, which is why I see that perhaps this Keris has the Madura hilt but Southern Thai styled scabbord?

Regards,

[maxbliss888]

Photo

[kai]

Hello Max,

When I compare the scabbord with those of Indonesia, it looked different

What exactly did you compare it with?

To me this looks like a fairly typical example of a scabbard with crescent crosspiece. Quite commonly seen throughout Sumatra, the Straits area, and the Malay peninsula.

Since wood doesn't last terribly long in a tropical climate, this may have been a local replacement (looks old and good quality wood); or it may have been an attempt to acculturate an imported keris to local tastes.

Regards,
Kai

[maxbliss888]

Thanks!

I am thinking of getting this and just wanted to make sure that the Keris with the Madura hilt fits with the Cerita blade are all correct..

[Gustav]

Of course there are a lot of older Keris with parts from different locations, and even more newer "marriages".

If you go for the blade (which is a peninsular one) - even if its fit with the sheath is ok, it is quite worn, Greneng completely disappeared, Wadidang disturbed. You surely would come across a better Cherita blade someday.

[A. G. Maisey]

Hilt Madura, maybe blade too.

[maxbliss888]

[maxbliss888]

Keris....

[maxbliss888]

Keris....
Thailand

[David]

Hi Max...i am afraid that there is nothing Thai about that hilt. Again i believe we are looking at a hilt from Madura, or possibly Northern Jawa. The pendokok at the base of this hilt i am not as certain about, but it is a mismatch with this particular hilt for sure and doesn't fit either by sizing or style.
I cannot comment on the blade since you have not posted a photo of it. I have seen variations of this scabbard form used with keris from both Sumatra and the Peninsula. Is there some reasoning you are using to identify this keris a Thai that you can share for a better understanding of what you are talking about?

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I think Max might be talking about the keris itself, ie, the blade, rather than the dress around the blade.

There is a school of thought that holds that only the blade is the keris, all else is irrelevant.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, I think Max might be talking about the keris itself, ie, the blade, rather than the dress around the blade.

There is a school of thought that holds that only the blade is the keris, all else is irrelevant.

Understood Alan, but without an image of the blade (or even with one) the point is moot...

[A. G. Maisey]

Sorry David, my error, I was looking the keris in post #4.

[maxbliss888]

I think you all are right as there were alot of cross fertilization across Southern Thai/Northen Malaysia and Sumatra and the region...

I think the Coteng and the Tajong have a stronger Southern Thai/Northern Malaysia identities...

[maxbliss888]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, I think Max might be talking about the keris itself, ie, the blade, rather than the dress around the blade.

There is a school of thought that holds that only the blade is the keris, all else is irrelevant.

Yes, I was referring to the blade itself. Sorry for the error as I was using my Ipad for my previous message and my ipad got hanged owing to the poor network...

[David]

Originally Posted by maxbliss888

Yes, I was referring to the blade itself. Sorry for the error as I was using my Ipad for my previous message and my ipad got hanged owing to the poor network...

No worries Max, but we still can't comment unless you are willing to post this particular blade.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

No worries Max, but we still can't comment unless you are willing to post this particular blade.

Hello David,

when i don't get something completely wrong speak/ask Max about the shown Cherita blade in post #1 and 4.

To answer Max's query, IMVHO is the blade with the scabbard very good fitting, only the hilt from Madura look "strange", i.e. not suitable for the combination.

Regards,
Detlef

[maxbliss888]

Please see the blade

[maxbliss888]

Another

[maxbliss888]

Photo before and after restoration

[maxbliss888]

More photos

[maxbliss888]

The Hulu ..

[maxbliss888]

Tummenggungan

[David]

Yes Max, your keris does indeed have what some call a tumenggungan hilt that undoubtably originated in Madura. The oversized brass pendokok is a Bugis style AFAIK and inappropriate for this hilt both size-wise and culturally. The sheath form can be found on keris from both Sumatra and the Peninsula. I'll leave the origin of this blade to others. In it's current condition i am just not sure. Many times when we see keris ensembles that are a mishmash of cultures and styles to this degree they are mixes that have been slapped together my dealers in order to sell an ensemble that appears more complete. While this keris may well have been bought in Thailand it seems unlikely that calling it a Thai keris or even a keris with Thai influence is a valid or accurate descriptor.

[A. G. Maisey]

Max, I don't know what book you've presented a photo from, but I rather feel that the person who named that hilt form "temenggungan" is a little out of his depth.

The correct name is actually "tumenggungan", this name does not come from any flower of anything, rather it comes from the word "tumenggung", which is a part of a bupati's title. A bupati is a regent, who is responsible for the administration of a kabupaten, which is a semi-autonomous administrative district. In the old days the position of a bupati tended to pass from father to son, so the family became something like minor nobility.

The spelling "temenggungan" is a corruption which follows a local pronunciation.

The name "tumenggungan" indicates that this form of hilt would be suitable for wear by a tumenggung. The way in which the title is used is, for example, "Bupati Tumenggung Surodiningrat".

Incidentally, I probably should not be so positive as to say that this is the correct name, I probably should say that some people believe it to be the correct name.

Edit --- A further note:-

I just mentioned to an educated native speaker of Javanese the idea that the word "temu" is the name of the ginger flower, I had never heard this usage..

He laughed out loud, and commented that whoever thought that the word "temu" referred to a flower was clearly looking at the wrong end of the ginger plant.

It seems that "temu" is the word used to refer to spices that come from the root of a plant, as does ginger when used as a spice.

I did not know this, I think only a native speaker would know it.

The information in this photo caption is just about as wrong as it can be.

[Paul de Souza]

An old post by Dave Henkel from 2002. Gosh how time flies. How the mind fossilises. I have forgotten so much.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000918.html

[David]

Hey Paul, it's nice to see that you are still lurking about these parts. Hope you are well.

[Paul de Souza]

Hi David. Yah. Am well. Been lurking about. Lots to catch up with. Hope u are well too.