A TORADOR MUSKET FOR A BOY

BANDOOK · 27th October 2015, 11:34 AM

INDIAN TORADOR MUSKET MADE FOR A BOY AS IT MEASURE ONLY 116 CMS.
ITS DATED 1865 MOST PROBABLY FROM THE MANY ARMOURYS OF RAJASTHAN

Pukka Bundook · 27th October 2015, 02:34 PM

That's a nice little one Bandook.

It doesn't appear to have had much use doies it?
How is the bore? Also, can I ask what calibre?
Is that a little nib in the middle of the pan? Never seen that before.
Apparently short toradors were made for ladies as well, for hunting, but I believe this one as you say made for a boy, as it lacks the usual embellishment of a hunting arm.
I like it!

Richard.

estcrh · 27th October 2015, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

INDIAN TORADOR MUSKET MADE FOR A BOY AS IT MEASURE ONLY 116 CMS.
ITS DATED 1865 MOST PROBABLY FROM THE MANY ARMOURYS OF RAJASTHAN

116cm/45in is not that small, I see no reason to think that this was made for a boy, the Japanese made small versions of their matchlocks for use on horseback (carbine), I have seen much smaller toradors, the Ottomans made short versions of their rifles as well.

trenchwarfare · 28th October 2015, 03:49 AM

The serpentine doesn't looks cut deep enough for a match. With the "nib" in the pan, is it possibly percussion? I know, it would take considerable pressure on the trigger, to fire a cap.

estcrh · 28th October 2015, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

The serpentine doesn't looks cut deep enough for a match. With the "nib" in the pan, is it possibly percussion? I know, it would take considerable pressure on the trigger, to fire a cap.

That is a matchlock, maybe the serpentine needs to be spread apart and I am not sure about the "nib" but the weak spring on these would not work as a percussion. Here is another similar example.

BANDOOK · 28th October 2015, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

That's a nice little one Bandook.

It doesn't appear to have had much use doies it?
How is the bore? Also, can I ask what calibre?
Is that a little nib in the middle of the pan? Never seen that before.
Apparently short toradors were made for ladies as well, for hunting, but I believe this one as you say made for a boy, as it lacks the usual embellishment of a hunting arm.
I like it!

Richard.

THANKS RICHARD FOR YOUR COMMENTS,YES THATS A NIB IN THE PAN,NO IDEA WHY??MY OTHER 2 TORADORS DONT HAVE THAT,ALSO COMPARED TO THE OTHER 2 MATCHLOCKS I HAVE THIS ONE IS HALF THE SIZE SO I ASSUMED ITS MADE FOR A BOY OR EVEN LADYS AS YOU HAVE MENTIONED,CHEERS,I WILL LET YOU KNOW THE BORE SOON,REGARDS

BANDOOK · 28th October 2015, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

That is a matchlock, maybe the serpentine needs to be spread apart and I am not sure about the "nib" but the weak spring on these would not work as a percussion. Here is another similar example.

HI ESTRCH
YOUR MUSKET IS SO MUCH LIKE MINE,JUST ONE YEAR APART FROM THE DATES.MUST HAVE RUBBED SHOULDERS AT ONE TIME,CHEERS AND THANKS FOR POSTING

Kubur · 28th October 2015, 12:00 PM

Hi Rajesh,

It's a nice one!
I don't think that it was made for a boy.
As you said probably a carbine. My torador is also very short.
I think it depends of the use...

Best,
Kubur

estcrh · 28th October 2015, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

HI ESTRCH
YOUR MUSKET IS SO MUCH LIKE MINE,JUST ONE YEAR APART FROM THE DATES.MUST HAVE RUBBED SHOULDERS AT ONE TIME,CHEERS AND THANKS FOR POSTING

Yes, they are very similar, same workshop perhaps. Here is a group of even smaller torador.

Kubur · 28th October 2015, 12:38 PM

I think these ones are for another use, they are really short.
They look like guns or blunderbuss.
Rajesh's carbine is probably for hunting.

Pukka Bundook · 28th October 2015, 02:21 PM

Are there any written accounts of the use of these short and even shorter matchlocks? I have seen paintings of hunting scenes, but they generally show long or intermediate arms.

Regarding dates;
It is possible that the dates are when they were "inventoried" in an arsenal, rather than when they were made. On Indian arms, this sometimes happened more than once.

Richard.

estcrh · 29th October 2015, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Are there any written accounts of the use of these short and even shorter matchlocks? I have seen paintings of hunting scenes, but they generally show long or intermediate arms.

Regarding dates;
It is possible that the dates are when they were "inventoried" in an arsenal, rather than when they were made. On Indian arms, this sometimes happened more than once.

Richard.

Richard, I am sure that those dates are arsenal dates and have nothing to do with their manufacture.

As for the short versions being mentioned in written accounts, there are a few mentions in general of "tamancha torador" but the only reference to their purpose I know of is by Georeg Stone who said that they were "probably mainly for show". I think they would have been a good household defense weapon, the ones pictured just do not look like show pieces unless Stone meant they were more for intimidation.

BANDOOK · 30th October 2015, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Rajesh,

It's a nice one!
I don't think that it was made for a boy.
As you said probably a carbine. My torador is also very short.
I think it depends of the use...

Best,
Kubur

HI KUBUR THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION,AS I NOW UNDERSTAND ITS MORE FOR HUNTING,MANY THANKS RAJESH

BANDOOK · 30th October 2015, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Yes, they are very similar, same workshop perhaps. Here is a group of even smaller torador.

THANS ESTCRH
THATS A BEAUTIFUL ARRAY OF TAMANCHAS ,COPIED THAT FOR MY E-LIBRARY
REGARDS
RAJESH

Kubur · 30th October 2015, 11:18 AM

Hi Rajesh,

Mine has a lot of tigers on the barrel.
Let's dream that it was to hunt tigers...

Best,
Kubur

BANDOOK · 30th October 2015, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Rajesh,

Mine has a lot of tigers on the barrel.
Let's dream that it was to hunt tigers...

Best,
Kubur

haha good one,you never know,poor tigers,more tigers as pets in peoples apartments in usa than in the indian jungle,cheers

Jens Nordlunde · 30th October 2015, 05:02 PM

Without any knowledge about shooting weapons I had to read about them, and here is what I found.
Robert Elgood: Firearms of the Islamic World in the Tareq Rajab Museum, Kuwait, 1995.
On page 130 Elgood quotes Oppert, who again quotes Sukraniti - Elgood writes that it is doubtful how genuine Sukraniti realy is.
" two kinds of firearms are dscribed in the Sukraniti, one is of small size and the other is of large size. The former is five spans long [a span is about 22 cm]..."
There are, of course, a lot of other interesting things to read, like on Sind where note 79 is of special interest, as it tells about a visit by Arnold von Haff in 1497, where he gives a description of the armoury, where he gives its size to thirty feed wide and quite a hundred feet long which is full of arms, like 3-4000 swords, daggers, chain mails, helmets, shields, long pikes and many cross bows hanging under the roof in six rows.
The description is too long for me to quote, but I think you get the general idea, that the armoury was quite big, and contained a lot of weapons.

It is also mentioned that these short guns were likely made for a boy or a woman.

rickystl · 30th October 2015, 05:26 PM

Hi Bandook.
That's a nice carbine length Torador. Good find.

Estcrh: YES! Thanks for the pics of these really short ones. I'll add this to my library. As mentioned above, the 1865 is an arsenal rack number.

Rick.

estcrh · 30th October 2015, 07:15 PM

From the Pitt Rivers Museum

Quote:

The matchlock musket was known as a torador in India. This is a shorter-barrelled version or 'carbine' version inlaid with ivory and dates to the 18th or 19th century. It was probably made for use on horseback as it has a ring for a lanyard (carrying strap). However, it was not uncommon to find shorter guns such as this made specially for women and children as hunting was enjoyed by all ages and both sexes of the Indian upper classes.

estcrh · 30th October 2015, 07:28 PM

Firearms of the Islamic World: In the Tared Rajab Museum, Kuwait By Robert Elgood.

estcrh · 30th October 2015, 08:14 PM

This paragraph mentions the use of carbine matchlocks (keroolee) in battle.

Historical sketches of the south of India: in an attempt to trace the history of Mysoor; from the origin of the Hindoo government of that state, to the extinction of the Mohammedan dynasty in 1799, Mark Wilks, 1817.
.

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2015, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Without any knowledge about shooting weapons I had to read about them, and here is what I found.
Robert Elgood: Firearms of the Islamic World in the Tareq Rajab Museum, Kuwait, 1995.
On page 130 Elgood quotes Oppert, who again quotes Sukraniti - Elgood writes that it is doubtful how genuine Sukraniti realy is.
" two kinds of firearms are dscribed in the Sukraniti, one is of small size and the other is of large size. The former is five spans long [a span is about 22 cm]..."
There are, of course, a lot of other interesting things to read, like on Sind where note 79 is of special interest, as it tells about a visit by Arnold von Haff in 1497, where he gives a description of the armoury, where he gives its size to thirty feed wide and quite a hundred feet long which is full of arms, like 3-4000 swords, daggers, chain mails, helmets, shields, long pikes and many cross bows hanging under the roof in six rows.
The description is too long for me to quote, but I think you get the general idea, that the armoury was quite big, and contained a lot of weapons.

It is also mentioned that these short guns were likely made for a boy or a woman.

Jens,
Thank you for noting this and for so well citing and referencing the source and pages. I also have little knowledge on these firearms, and its great to have these sources so I can pursue more in that context. I always appreciate when contributors add these details. The note as to these indeed produced for boys as suspected is great support.

All best regards
Jim

estcrh · 30th October 2015, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The note as to these indeed produced for boys as suspected is great support.

All best regards
Jim

Jim, Jens quote says "It is also mentioned that these short guns were likely made for a boy or a woman." "Likely" is subjective, and since there are several types which ones, carbines or pistols, and what was Elgood basing this on, an older reference, images of a boy or woman using a short matchlock, more research is needed.

estcrh · 30th October 2015, 08:44 PM

This reference says that pistols (tabancha) and carbines appear to have been rarely used by Mughal cavalry, but what about non cavalry Mughal troops and other Indian cultures.

Mughal Warfare: Indian Frontiers and Highroads to Empire 1500–1700, J.J.L. Gommans, Routledge, 2003.

BANDOOK · 31st October 2015, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Bandook.
That's a nice carbine length Torador. Good find.

Estcrh: YES! Thanks for the pics of these really short ones. I'll add this to my library. As mentioned above, the 1865 is an arsenal rack number.

Rick.

THANKS RICK,CHEERS

rickystl · 31st October 2015, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

This reference says that pistols (tabancha) and carbines appear to have been rarely used by Mughal cavalry, but what about non cavalry Mughal troops and other Indian cultures.

Mughal Warfare: Indian Frontiers and Highroads to Empire 1500–1700, J.J.L. Gommans, Routledge, 2003.

Estcrh: Thank you for Posting this. First time I've read this. Most interesting.
My investigation of the breech of these barrels seems to confirm the mention here of "large powder chambers".
It's just amazing they continued to use these matchlocks well into the 19th Century. Thanks again.
Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 31st October 2015, 03:52 PM

Rick,

In the book "Sahib" (The British soldier in India)
There are many instances quoted of the native with his matchlock outshooting the British infantry, both in range and accuracy.
This didn't really change until the rifle -musket came along, and even then the Indian torador was still used for sniping at long range.
Appears as well, that some excelled at accurate shooting with these from galloping horses...

27th October 2015, 11:34 AM	#1
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	A TORADOR MUSKET FOR A BOY INDIAN TORADOR MUSKET MADE FOR A BOY AS IT MEASURE ONLY 116 CMS. ITS DATED 1865 MOST PROBABLY FROM THE MANY ARMOURYS OF RAJASTHAN Attached Images

30th October 2015, 07:28 PM	#20
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	Firearms of the Islamic World: In the Tared Rajab Museum, Kuwait By Robert Elgood. Attached Images

30th October 2015, 08:14 PM	#21
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	This paragraph mentions the use of carbine matchlocks (keroolee) in battle. Historical sketches of the south of India: in an attempt to trace the history of Mysoor; from the origin of the Hindoo government of that state, to the extinction of the Mohammedan dynasty in 1799, Mark Wilks, 1817. . Attached Images

30th October 2015, 08:44 PM	#24
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	This reference says that pistols (tabancha) and carbines appear to have been rarely used by Mughal cavalry, but what about non cavalry Mughal troops and other Indian cultures. Mughal Warfare: Indian Frontiers and Highroads to Empire 1500–1700, J.J.L. Gommans, Routledge, 2003. Attached Images

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27th October 2015, 02:34 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	That's a nice little one Bandook. It doesn't appear to have had much use doies it? How is the bore? Also, can I ask what calibre? Is that a little nib in the middle of the pan? Never seen that before. Apparently short toradors were made for ladies as well, for hunting, but I believe this one as you say made for a boy, as it lacks the usual embellishment of a hunting arm. I like it! Richard.

28th October 2015, 03:49 AM	#4
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	The serpentine doesn't looks cut deep enough for a match. With the "nib" in the pan, is it possibly percussion? I know, it would take considerable pressure on the trigger, to fire a cap.

28th October 2015, 12:00 PM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Rajesh, It's a nice one! I don't think that it was made for a boy. As you said probably a carbine. My torador is also very short. I think it depends of the use... Best, Kubur

28th October 2015, 12:38 PM	#10
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I think these ones are for another use, they are really short. They look like guns or blunderbuss. Rajesh's carbine is probably for hunting.

28th October 2015, 02:21 PM	#11
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Are there any written accounts of the use of these short and even shorter matchlocks? I have seen paintings of hunting scenes, but they generally show long or intermediate arms. Regarding dates; It is possible that the dates are when they were "inventoried" in an arsenal, rather than when they were made. On Indian arms, this sometimes happened more than once. Richard.

30th October 2015, 11:18 AM	#15
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Rajesh, Mine has a lot of tigers on the barrel. Let's dream that it was to hunt tigers... Best, Kubur

30th October 2015, 05:02 PM	#17
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Without any knowledge about shooting weapons I had to read about them, and here is what I found. Robert Elgood: Firearms of the Islamic World in the Tareq Rajab Museum, Kuwait, 1995. On page 130 Elgood quotes Oppert, who again quotes Sukraniti - Elgood writes that it is doubtful how genuine Sukraniti realy is. " two kinds of firearms are dscribed in the Sukraniti, one is of small size and the other is of large size. The former is five spans long [a span is about 22 cm]..." There are, of course, a lot of other interesting things to read, like on Sind where note 79 is of special interest, as it tells about a visit by Arnold von Haff in 1497, where he gives a description of the armoury, where he gives its size to thirty feed wide and quite a hundred feet long which is full of arms, like 3-4000 swords, daggers, chain mails, helmets, shields, long pikes and many cross bows hanging under the roof in six rows. The description is too long for me to quote, but I think you get the general idea, that the armoury was quite big, and contained a lot of weapons. It is also mentioned that these short guns were likely made for a boy or a woman.

30th October 2015, 05:26 PM	#18
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Bandook. That's a nice carbine length Torador. Good find. Estcrh: YES! Thanks for the pics of these really short ones. I'll add this to my library. As mentioned above, the 1865 is an arsenal rack number. Rick.

31st October 2015, 03:52 PM	#27
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Rick, In the book "Sahib" (The British soldier in India) There are many instances quoted of the native with his matchlock outshooting the British infantry, both in range and accuracy. This didn't really change until the rifle -musket came along, and even then the Indian torador was still used for sniping at long range. Appears as well, that some excelled at accurate shooting with these from galloping horses...