Interesting Saif with Provenance for Sharing

Kubur · 26th June 2015, 07:27 AM

Hi Jim,
I think like you that this blade is early 19th c. or very late 18th c.
If the blade is not a mid or late 19th c. then I do not think that the blade entered the Red Sea by the South. And I do not think that's a colonial blade or a trade blade. Lotfy, I would like to think that your blade cames from Quseir. During the French expedition, the Egyptian port of Quseir was occupied by the Napoleonic army. Quseir was one of the major ottoman harbour on the Red Sea, directly in contact with Jeddah, for trade and pilgrimage. I guess some members will say that I'm crazy or a dreamer, but it's not impossible for me...

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2015, 04:41 PM

Thank you Kubur for your response and for the most interesting explanation regarding the French possibilities. Very well explained, and while I am familiar with the Napoleonic expeditions I had known the detail about this port. Very well reasoned and certainly a plausible source as you note for French blades.
I still sense this as a Solingen blade and most probably of early 19th c. and at this point do not think it is French. As you know French blades of these times were usually inscribed on the blade spine, which would not have been removed by constant polishing in Arabian practice.

It is an interesting conundrum and I look forward to other thoughts and observations as always.

Best regards,
Jim

A.alnakkas · 26th June 2015, 05:23 PM

Hey Jim,

Indians and Yemenis copied European designs and often the flex is different on their swords. Also, I owned a Qajar blade with such features.

A.alnakkas · 30th June 2015, 10:42 AM

This is another saif in my collection with a blade that seemed European at first but its actually wootz.

A.alnakkas · 20th November 2015, 11:04 AM

Well, I facepalmed that I at some point, thought this is not a European blade. A friend just found a small proof mark on the blade, has a crown and a G under it.. Will try to photograph it

A.alnakkas · 20th November 2015, 01:30 PM

Anyone have any idea about the origin of this proof mark?

Pukka Bundook · 20th November 2015, 01:59 PM

That mark reminds me very much of the Swedish mark, seen on arms made by Carl Gustav.

Richard.

26th June 2015, 05:23 PM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey Jim, Indians and Yemenis copied European designs and often the flex is different on their swords. Also, I owned a Qajar blade with such features. Attached Images

30th June 2015, 10:42 AM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	This is another saif in my collection with a blade that seemed European at first but its actually wootz. Attached Images

20th November 2015, 01:30 PM	#6
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Anyone have any idea about the origin of this proof mark? Attached Images

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

26th June 2015, 07:27 AM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Jim, I think like you that this blade is early 19th c. or very late 18th c. If the blade is not a mid or late 19th c. then I do not think that the blade entered the Red Sea by the South. And I do not think that's a colonial blade or a trade blade. Lotfy, I would like to think that your blade cames from Quseir. During the French expedition, the Egyptian port of Quseir was occupied by the Napoleonic army. Quseir was one of the major ottoman harbour on the Red Sea, directly in contact with Jeddah, for trade and pilgrimage. I guess some members will say that I'm crazy or a dreamer, but it's not impossible for me...

26th June 2015, 04:41 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Thank you Kubur for your response and for the most interesting explanation regarding the French possibilities. Very well explained, and while I am familiar with the Napoleonic expeditions I had known the detail about this port. Very well reasoned and certainly a plausible source as you note for French blades. I still sense this as a Solingen blade and most probably of early 19th c. and at this point do not think it is French. As you know French blades of these times were usually inscribed on the blade spine, which would not have been removed by constant polishing in Arabian practice. It is an interesting conundrum and I look forward to other thoughts and observations as always. Best regards, Jim

20th November 2015, 11:04 AM	#5
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Well, I facepalmed that I at some point, thought this is not a European blade. A friend just found a small proof mark on the blade, has a crown and a G under it.. Will try to photograph it

20th November 2015, 01:59 PM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	That mark reminds me very much of the Swedish mark, seen on arms made by Carl Gustav. Richard.