Tomas Aiala Cup hilt rapier.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Jean-Luc,
A real nice find, 'de Aiala' blades seem to be popping up all over Here's a Tomas de Aiala rapier courtesy of the Wallace Collection, a bit of a different class from ours
My Regards,
Norman.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jean-Luc,
A real nice find, 'de Aiala' blades seem to be popping up all over Here's a Tomas de Aiala rapier courtesy of the Wallace Collection, a bit of a different class from ours
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman

Thank you for the picture.
It is only in Museum you could see so nice example and based on this picture I can understand why his name had been popping all over .
Best

Jean-Luc

[fernando]

A rather beatiful sword indeed, however giving place to reiterate the dilemma of genuine smith signatures.
According to the host of this example, the mark stamped on the ricasso (quote) appears to represent the royal arms of France and not that usualy associated with Tomas de Aiala (or Ayala).
... Resulting that this sword could even be Italian, still according to Wallace specialists.

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by fernando

A rather beatiful sword indeed, however giving place to reiterate the dilemma of genuine smith signatures.
According to the host of this example, the mark stamped on the ricasso (quote) appears to represent the royal arms of France and not that usualy associated with Tomas de Aiala (or Ayala).
... Resulting that this sword could even be Italian, still according to Wallace specialists.

Yes, ambiguity seems to be a byword when it comes to arms and armour!!!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

A rather beatiful sword indeed, however giving place to reiterate the dilemma of genuine smith signatures.
According to the host of this example, the mark stamped on the ricasso (quote) appears to represent the royal arms of France and not that usualy associated with Tomas de Aiala (or Ayala).
... Resulting that this sword could even be Italian, still according to Wallace specialists.

If I am not mistaken, a number of Milanese smiths worked in France, I think near Lyon but cannot recall exactly. Italians often used the Ayala name, much as did the German smiths into later times.

[fernando]

Still citing Sir James Mann, the Ayala name was frequently used as a kind of trade label, indicative of a certain type of blade, rather than any intention to deceive.

[kronckew]

i read somewhere (probably here on the forum) that at the height of the rapier 'age' they reached somewhat ridiculous lengths in civilian circumstances, mostly for fashion as the wearer was not likely to engage in a real duel.

i also read that a city where this was happening was so annoyed by the lengths gentlemen were going to, they banned blades over a yard long, and anyone caught with a longer blade on entry thru the gates would have it's excess broken off.

what i gather is a typical rapier scabbard (repro) and associated belting and fittings. the carrier at the balance hangs from a hook/eyelet on your left, and has a further strap that hooks to another eyelet on your right. the sword hangs almost horizontally, in balance. i assume the extra strap keeps it at a better angle & from flopping about hitting others & provoking duels. it does NOT go around your butt, but runs forward across your front as in the 2nd photo.

[fernando]

I wouldn't know about the fashion issue, but it was a vital advantage to have a longer reach than your adversary in a duel. There were indeed royal laws limiting the length of swords. King Dom João III, for one, allowed a maximum five and half palms ( some 120 cms.). Longer specimens were then called 'off mark', some of them reaching the seven palms.
Noteworthy the limit prescribed comprehended the whole sword; you could have a normal blade and a longer hilt, which would give the same effect.
One alternative to evade the law was to commission 'extendable' swords; you would go around with a legal weapon and only stretched it for a duel.
As then Monarchs considered themselves above the law, there is no surprise that, in the arms inventory of King Dom Pedro II, inherited from his father Dom João IV, it was listed an item called "sword that grows".

.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Still citing Sir James Mann, the Ayala name was frequently used as a kind of trade label, indicative of a certain type of blade, rather than any intention to deceive.

Thank you Nando!!! I had missed your response as I was caught up in the fascinating detour on fencing rules on blades etc , pretty intriguing to see how much regulation there really was concerning these swords.
Indeed, it does seem the Ayala name did become a sort of trademark as discussed with Andrea Ferara, Sahagum and others.
I wish we had as much recoded data on the use of these names and marks as we seem to have on all these regulations on lengths etc.

Ibrahiim, thank you for spotting this fascinating site you linked! You are always amazing finding these outstanding online resources!


All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Here is a comparison between a sword within mark and two examples off mark.
Says the author Eduardo Nobre that, while legal swords had five palms total length, these ilegal examples had seven palms of blade alone.
He proceeds saying that indeed their unsheathing and carrying around was rather problematic, besides the difficulty to fence with blades of such length, they managed to keep at distance the most adventurous adversary.

.

[fernando]

Curious event,
... In which Master Lucas, a Biscayne sword smith resident in Lisbon, having being found with four 'black' swords greater than the mark, was arrested and later released with 100 cruzados bail, from which he ended up being pardoned... not without having to pay 1000 reaes for the Hospital of All Saints.

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