keris for comment

Jean · 14th December 2014, 05:12 PM

Hello Alan,
Thank you for the clarification about the features of Pengging blades.
Regarding the curved ganja, do you mean that it is specific to one tangguh? I am confused as I saw blades with such a ganja attributed to either tangguh Majapahit or Mataram, and it is often found on recent blades also.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 14th December 2014, 08:27 PM

Yeah, as usual Jean, there is a whole heap of stuff attached to this tangguh business that doesn't come through into broad understanding; I only gave a couple of the Pengging indicators, in fact, there are 13 that I have a note of.

I can see why you'd think that maybe this blade could bear some similarity to Pengging, and maybe that's what the maker was shooting for, because all he had to go on was the common description, but he'd never seen one either.

I've got one Pengging keris, and its just plain weird. I've only seen maybe one other --- I say "maybe" because I cannot remember if I've seen two that were attributed to Pengging, and if there was some sort of agreement that either were Pengging. In fact, the Pengging keris that I have is a very poor quality keris, but it does bear the salient features that permit it to be classified as Pengging.

No, I'm not aligning the ganja form with any classification. They do seem to crop up more on East Jawa keris, but you can find them on just about any later keris I believe.

All I'm saying is that the form is kelap lintah. Have a look at Ensiklopedi P. 167.

Pengging is an interesting classification, because it was never a kingdom, it was only maybe a kabupaten, it was set up by a noble from Majapahit, Adipati Handayaningrat, who was the grandfather of Sultan Hadiwijoyo of Pajang. This of course makes all the later rulers of Central Jawa, right through to today, descendants of Pengging (through the female line). The area even today has a strong spiritual element, it is located in Banyudono about 8 or 10 kilometers west of Adi Sumarmo airport. Interestingly Yosodipuro is buried there.

semar · 15th December 2014, 02:04 AM

hello mister Maisey

oke its not a keris from pengging like you say
can you tel me wich tangguh this keris can come from
and it is possibele to show the bald of penggi so we can get a idee

regards Semar

A. G. Maisey · 15th December 2014, 02:39 AM

Based upon what I believe I can see in the photograph I am of the opinion that this keris is tangguh Kemardikan.

I'm sorry, but I do not display photographs of my personal keris until such time as I may be prepared to sell.

Jean · 15th December 2014, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

No, I'm not aligning the ganja form with any classification. They do seem to crop up more on East Jawa keris, but you can find them on just about any later keris I believe.
All I'm saying is that the form is kelap lintah. Have a look at Ensiklopedi P. 167.

Thank you Alan. According to Haryoguritno this style of curved ganja with 3 luk and curved kanyut is called Dhungkul (see Keris Jawa page 162) while the ganja Kelap Lintah is similar but with 5 luk, is it correct?
And thank you for your opinion that this kris is probably recently made although it looks old, I sensed it also but have not enough experience to be affirmative about it.
Regards

semar · 15th December 2014, 10:23 AM

thank you for the info of the dapur Jean
and sorry i not belive this is a Kemardikan.keris but that what i think and
than a vieuw peopel here in djogya make a mistak and in solo to that look to this blade
the peopel that look and have this keris in the hand al agree the blad is old one
not new that what i can tel and what the tel me

Regards semar

A. G. Maisey · 15th December 2014, 12:49 PM

Jean, look at the bottom of the ganja, the bottom being the part of the ganja that touches the base of the blade.

Now count from below the sirah cecak with the point of the keris in the down position.

The waves in Semar's ganja go down > up >down > up > down --this last "down" trailing into the greneng.

Now count Haryoguritno's waves in the same way, then count Harsrinuksmo's waves in the same way.

You will find that although each of these illustrations of ganjas look different, they are in fact the same.

Do the same exercise with the two totally different illustrations of ganja dhungkul. Once again you will find that they are the same.

Now then, Mr. Semar.

I have the feeling that you are playing some sort of game with us.

You have already presented this keris to people whom I assume to be experienced and knowledgeable and who live in Central Jawa, and you have their opinions.

Then you present us with photos and ask for our opinions.

Can you please explain exactly what you hoped to achieve by this?

We all know that a photograph cannot compare with the actual handling of a keris when we need to form an opinion, but when somebody asks us to provide an opinion we still endeavour to do so.

We do this because we try to assist the questioner.

But here you are, effectively wasting our time with empty questions.

You already had what any reasonable person would regard as adequate opinions, and in light of your most recent post, it would seem that you had already accepted the opinions of these people as correct.

But you then post photos , initially with no comment, and fish for our opinions, in the process wasting our time.

For what purpose may I ask?

For your own amusement?

To my way of thinking this sort of behaviour comes dangerously close to the behaviour one would expect of a Troll.

It is entirely possible that I may be in error in respect of your motivation, so it is that I am more than willing to listen to a plausible explanation from you that will dispel my present opinion of your behaviour, and provide me with the opportunity to extend my apologies to you.

semar · 16th December 2014, 03:11 AM

Mister Maisey

i not try to waist your time i try to get so much info as posibel and I not see the problem when i aske peopel i know here in jawa wat the think about a keris blad that i buy because the are have more expiriance than me thats to point

way i put this one the forum to laern more about the keris the first keris i put u make a comment this is a keris oke you wright and i think that solo keris is a good keris thank you

so exempel Jean say nice blad looks old and he tel me the name of the dapur
than you say no thats a kamadarikan blad( oja Jean say thats wat´t i think to how its posibel when its i the first a nice blade looks like a old blade is and not a kamadarikan blade but after you say he agree thats way I always try to aske so manny peopel as i know because the will say this and the other wil say that ( so I not see the problem of that every body like the keris and every body have his one viewe of thinking of this subject

and sorry i not wont effend you but you think i a Troll thats not nice but when its make you happy your welkom

mister maiey i believe that you know verry much about the keris but some time a simpel discussie more helpful than al long one you can dowt every thing ore make over every thing a discussie even the discussie over the celebes keris so long and you make it more difficult than its nesecery you aske quistoins you even not can aswer nobody can say for 100% thats a keris have all is origneel parts we dont know if the change ad a blad 100 years ago thats have be broke we not can see that any more
and sorry i think its strange when you have a keris thats rare that you not will show a picteur of that keris only when you like to sell so peopel can learn something with out much words only treu looking

so i apologies for my upion and the mistake with my bad engels I hoop i make my point of vieuw clear

semar ( the troll )

David · 16th December 2014, 05:47 AM

OK gentlemen, that's enough...
Let's keep this discussion on the keris and keep it civil.
Frankly Semar, i also think your keris is Kemardikan.True, that is an opinion based on photographs while you have the keris in hand. But i believe i see some definite clues in the erosion of this blade that this keris has been artificially aged.
I must admit that, like Alan, i also question the practice of throwing a keris up on the boards that you believe you already know about without any indication of what you think you know just it to draw out the opinions of others....only to disagree with those opinions because they don't jive with what you think you already know. You would be better off saying all you think you know about the keris up front. It would appear more honest, more transparent. But i have noticed this is a general posting pattern for you. "Keris for Comment" or "Keris for Sharing" is a common thread title for you and rarely do you say any more about your posted item. I believe that Alan was perhaps rash to refer to you as a "troll". I certainly do not believe this is so. But frankly, your posts often appear to me more as advertisements than trolling. I do hope this isn't the case. I can tolerate a troll more than i can a merchant in the our little temple...

BTW, Alan's practice of not showing his personal keris on the forum is not that unusual, especially amongst the indigenous culture. I mostly adhere to the same principle (though i recently did post one of my new keris simply for complete lack of knowledge of the form). I will show a sheathed keris (always meant for public presentation as an object of dress), but usually choose not to show my blades. They are my children after all.

Alan has been quite capable of imparting countless bits of valuable information about the keris and keris culture without having to violate his principle of not posting his keris in public places.

15th December 2014, 10:23 AM	#6
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	thank you for the info of the dapur Jean and sorry i not belive this is a Kemardikan.keris but that what i think and than a vieuw peopel here in djogya make a mistak and in solo to that look to this blade the peopel that look and have this keris in the hand al agree the blad is old one not new that what i can tel and what the tel me Regards semar Last edited by semar; 15th December 2014 at 12:16 PM.

15th December 2014, 12:49 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Jean, look at the bottom of the ganja, the bottom being the part of the ganja that touches the base of the blade. Now count from below the sirah cecak with the point of the keris in the down position. The waves in Semar's ganja go down > up >down > up > down --this last "down" trailing into the greneng. Now count Haryoguritno's waves in the same way, then count Harsrinuksmo's waves in the same way. You will find that although each of these illustrations of ganjas look different, they are in fact the same. Do the same exercise with the two totally different illustrations of ganja dhungkul. Once again you will find that they are the same. Now then, Mr. Semar. I have the feeling that you are playing some sort of game with us. You have already presented this keris to people whom I assume to be experienced and knowledgeable and who live in Central Jawa, and you have their opinions. Then you present us with photos and ask for our opinions. Can you please explain exactly what you hoped to achieve by this? We all know that a photograph cannot compare with the actual handling of a keris when we need to form an opinion, but when somebody asks us to provide an opinion we still endeavour to do so. We do this because we try to assist the questioner. But here you are, effectively wasting our time with empty questions. You already had what any reasonable person would regard as adequate opinions, and in light of your most recent post, it would seem that you had already accepted the opinions of these people as correct. But you then post photos , initially with no comment, and fish for our opinions, in the process wasting our time. For what purpose may I ask? For your own amusement? To my way of thinking this sort of behaviour comes dangerously close to the behaviour one would expect of a Troll. It is entirely possible that I may be in error in respect of your motivation, so it is that I am more than willing to listen to a plausible explanation from you that will dispel my present opinion of your behaviour, and provide me with the opportunity to extend my apologies to you. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 15th December 2014 at 01:03 PM. Reason: clarification

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14th December 2014, 05:12 PM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you for the clarification about the features of Pengging blades. Regarding the curved ganja, do you mean that it is specific to one tangguh? I am confused as I saw blades with such a ganja attributed to either tangguh Majapahit or Mataram, and it is often found on recent blades also. Regards

14th December 2014, 08:27 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yeah, as usual Jean, there is a whole heap of stuff attached to this tangguh business that doesn't come through into broad understanding; I only gave a couple of the Pengging indicators, in fact, there are 13 that I have a note of. I can see why you'd think that maybe this blade could bear some similarity to Pengging, and maybe that's what the maker was shooting for, because all he had to go on was the common description, but he'd never seen one either. I've got one Pengging keris, and its just plain weird. I've only seen maybe one other --- I say "maybe" because I cannot remember if I've seen two that were attributed to Pengging, and if there was some sort of agreement that either were Pengging. In fact, the Pengging keris that I have is a very poor quality keris, but it does bear the salient features that permit it to be classified as Pengging. No, I'm not aligning the ganja form with any classification. They do seem to crop up more on East Jawa keris, but you can find them on just about any later keris I believe. All I'm saying is that the form is kelap lintah. Have a look at Ensiklopedi P. 167. Pengging is an interesting classification, because it was never a kingdom, it was only maybe a kabupaten, it was set up by a noble from Majapahit, Adipati Handayaningrat, who was the grandfather of Sultan Hadiwijoyo of Pajang. This of course makes all the later rulers of Central Jawa, right through to today, descendants of Pengging (through the female line). The area even today has a strong spiritual element, it is located in Banyudono about 8 or 10 kilometers west of Adi Sumarmo airport. Interestingly Yosodipuro is buried there.

15th December 2014, 02:04 AM	#3
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	hello mister Maisey oke its not a keris from pengging like you say can you tel me wich tangguh this keris can come from and it is possibele to show the bald of penggi so we can get a idee regards Semar

15th December 2014, 02:39 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Based upon what I believe I can see in the photograph I am of the opinion that this keris is tangguh Kemardikan. I'm sorry, but I do not display photographs of my personal keris until such time as I may be prepared to sell.

16th December 2014, 03:11 AM	#8
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	Mister Maisey i not try to waist your time i try to get so much info as posibel and I not see the problem when i aske peopel i know here in jawa wat the think about a keris blad that i buy because the are have more expiriance than me thats to point way i put this one the forum to laern more about the keris the first keris i put u make a comment this is a keris oke you wright and i think that solo keris is a good keris thank you so exempel Jean say nice blad looks old and he tel me the name of the dapur than you say no thats a kamadarikan blad( oja Jean say thats wat´t i think to how its posibel when its i the first a nice blade looks like a old blade is and not a kamadarikan blade but after you say he agree thats way I always try to aske so manny peopel as i know because the will say this and the other wil say that ( so I not see the problem of that every body like the keris and every body have his one viewe of thinking of this subject and sorry i not wont effend you but you think i a Troll thats not nice but when its make you happy your welkom mister maiey i believe that you know verry much about the keris but some time a simpel discussie more helpful than al long one you can dowt every thing ore make over every thing a discussie even the discussie over the celebes keris so long and you make it more difficult than its nesecery you aske quistoins you even not can aswer nobody can say for 100% thats a keris have all is origneel parts we dont know if the change ad a blad 100 years ago thats have be broke we not can see that any more and sorry i think its strange when you have a keris thats rare that you not will show a picteur of that keris only when you like to sell so peopel can learn something with out much words only treu looking so i apologies for my upion and the mistake with my bad engels I hoop i make my point of vieuw clear semar ( the troll )

16th December 2014, 05:47 AM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	OK gentlemen, that's enough... Let's keep this discussion on the keris and keep it civil. Frankly Semar, i also think your keris is Kemardikan.True, that is an opinion based on photographs while you have the keris in hand. But i believe i see some definite clues in the erosion of this blade that this keris has been artificially aged. I must admit that, like Alan, i also question the practice of throwing a keris up on the boards that you believe you already know about without any indication of what you think you know just it to draw out the opinions of others....only to disagree with those opinions because they don't jive with what you think you already know. You would be better off saying all you think you know about the keris up front. It would appear more honest, more transparent. But i have noticed this is a general posting pattern for you. "Keris for Comment" or "Keris for Sharing" is a common thread title for you and rarely do you say any more about your posted item. I believe that Alan was perhaps rash to refer to you as a "troll". I certainly do not believe this is so. But frankly, your posts often appear to me more as advertisements than trolling. I do hope this isn't the case. I can tolerate a troll more than i can a merchant in the our little temple... BTW, Alan's practice of not showing his personal keris on the forum is not that unusual, especially amongst the indigenous culture. I mostly adhere to the same principle (though i recently did post one of my new keris simply for complete lack of knowledge of the form). I will show a sheathed keris (always meant for public presentation as an object of dress), but usually choose not to show my blades. They are my children after all. Alan has been quite capable of imparting countless bits of valuable information about the keris and keris culture without having to violate his principle of not posting his keris in public places.