Accidental collector - old weapons ID assistance (Yao?)

spiral · 9th November 2014, 03:28 PM

Certainly possible Richard, .....

More evidence required!

Any listed in pre.ww2 sales catalogue's anyone?

spiral

Sajen · 9th November 2014, 04:50 PM

This one was offered by ebay but wasn't sold. Remarkable is that the handle material seems to be from hippo ivory. Pictures from the seller.

Jampot10 · 9th November 2014, 05:31 PM

Good find Sajen.

This is a link to some Ivory jewellery from Malawi attributed to the Zomba region which was settled by the Yao. The decoration is very similar to the weapon you show and identical to the designs on my knives.

linky

This picture is of Hugh Stannus Stannus one of the key donors to the BM that helps with the placement of these knives. Hugh Stannus Stannus 1877-1957 was medical officer to the King's African Rifles from 1905-1914 whilst they were based in British Central Africa (Malawi). He also published a written work on the Wa-Yao people in 1922 and was a well recognised expert in African study.

There is a more detailed description of Stannus and his work here linky

russel · 9th November 2014, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

This one was offered by ebay but wasn't sold. Remarkable is that the handle material seems to be from hippo ivory. Pictures from the seller.

I had been watching this on too Detlef, and was just about to post the images myself, you beat me to it. I too noticed the Hippopotamus ivory. The scabbard construction, while by no means necessarily original, seems to me to be very African in style and finish.

Both the Hippopotamus ivory and scabbard tend to support an African origin as discussed above. I have wanted one of these, but like others had believed Burma/Assam to be the origin. My opinion is now starting to change - but I still want one.

spiral · 9th November 2014, 07:14 PM

Great stuff Sajen & indeed Jampot... well spotted!

Its obviously the same chap who brought this one back.

So I think the Yao/ Malawi finding of these is above reproach myself.

Just who made/sold them, is the last bit of the puzzle.

I still think the African trading Company could be plausible! But so could other Indian or British entrepreneurs, The to me seem a bit late in dating for them to be from Arab slave trade, but in truth I guess that carried on a for a long time, just as slavery still does today...

spiral

Sajen · 9th November 2014, 10:11 PM

Yes, indeed, it seems that we all have been wrong with our believe of Asian origin for this daggers.

Gavin Nugent · 9th November 2014, 11:51 PM

GOLD STAR Jampot! Great detective work.

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

African gets my vote, I have seen this confirmed but I can't recall...Algeria?

Gav

I'll settle for a silver star

Thor might have saved us all the trouble some time back as looking back each and every one looks hippo now that Sajen ponted this out....

spiral · 10th November 2014, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

GOLD STAR Jampot! Great detective work.

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

African gets my vote, I have seen this confirmed but I can't recall...Algeria?

I'll settle for a silver star

Bronze star I think Gav.

Algeria as far away as India from Malawi I reckon!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Thor might have saved us all the trouble some time back as looking back each and every one looks hippo now that Sajen ponted this out....

Damn... hippo pegs! Wonder what the horn ones are?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

They were just discussed on a Russian forum Guns.ru

I thought they were SE Asian, but to my chagrin learned they were from West Africa, Yao tribe, Malawi. Apparently concentric circles are a dead giveaway.

Another Gold star for Ariel I think though...

spiral

Sajen · 10th November 2014, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Thor might have saved us all the trouble some time back as looking back each and every one looks hippo now that Sajen ponted this out....

I don't think that the hippo ivory is a good proof for the African origin, you can find this material in Malaysia, Indonesia or also the Philippines.
But the necklace Jampot have shown by link is a good one which was conclusive IMO.

Regards,
Detlef

9th November 2014, 04:50 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,646	This one was offered by ebay but wasn't sold. Remarkable is that the handle material seems to be from hippo ivory. Pictures from the seller. Attached Images

9th November 2014, 05:31 PM	#3
Jampot10 Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 12	Good find Sajen. This is a link to some Ivory jewellery from Malawi attributed to the Zomba region which was settled by the Yao. The decoration is very similar to the weapon you show and identical to the designs on my knives. linky This picture is of Hugh Stannus Stannus one of the key donors to the BM that helps with the placement of these knives. Hugh Stannus Stannus 1877-1957 was medical officer to the King's African Rifles from 1905-1914 whilst they were based in British Central Africa (Malawi). He also published a written work on the Wa-Yao people in 1922 and was a well recognised expert in African study. There is a more detailed description of Stannus and his work here linky Attached Images Last edited by Jampot10; 9th November 2014 at 06:38 PM.

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9th November 2014, 03:28 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Certainly possible Richard, ..... More evidence required! Any listed in pre.ww2 sales catalogue's anyone? spiral

9th November 2014, 07:14 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Great stuff Sajen & indeed Jampot... well spotted! Its obviously the same chap who brought this one back. So I think the Yao/ Malawi finding of these is above reproach myself. Just who made/sold them, is the last bit of the puzzle. I still think the African trading Company could be plausible! But so could other Indian or British entrepreneurs, The to me seem a bit late in dating for them to be from Arab slave trade, but in truth I guess that carried on a for a long time, just as slavery still does today... spiral

9th November 2014, 10:11 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,646	Yes, indeed, it seems that we all have been wrong with our believe of Asian origin for this daggers.