Quality of edged weapons (101)?

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Everything that STT and Oliver have said is relevant to your question, however, I am unable to be as specific either of these two gentlemen.

Perhaps the very first question to answer is exactly what is meant by "quality" in any particular field.

Are you going to judge quality in accordance with the parameters used by collectors and other authorities who are outside the relevant culture/society, or are you going to judge quality in accordance with the standards used within the culture/society ?

If within the relevant culture/society, will you apply the standards of the people within that society who are recognized arbiters, or will you apply the standards of the general mass?

Then there is the problem of time:- something that is accepted as an object of high quality today, may not have been highly regarded at the time it was produced, and the opposite can also be the case.

Since you are focused on modern interpretations of traditional weapons, perhaps you need to understand how the people within the relevant society/culture see the weapon in question in today's terms. Has the weapon developed into an art work, has the form developed into something a little different from what it used to be, or are the modern makers attempting to copy and reproduce styles from the past?

Perhaps it may be relevant to use the standards of modern custom cutlers, where you would apply the three "F's" :- fit, finish, functionality.

But if the weapon has developed into an art work, then functionality no longer applies.

I apologise for raising more questions than I have answered, but I do believe that you first need to clarify your collecting objectives, and perhaps the first question you must clarify for yourself is exactly what standards you intend to apply:- the standards within the culture /society, or the standards of collectors who are outside the culture/society.

In my own field of specialisation there can often be a very wide gap between one of the several standards that can apply in Javanese or Balinese society, and the standards that apply amongst collectors outside those societies. All these standards can be argued to be valid, but we need to be clear in our own minds about which standard it is that we apply for our own collecting.

It's funny that you should say just that, in just that way, just when you did- I just happen to have had a conversation about just that with a friend just the other day! ;^) Here's a distillation of what came out of it:

I asked my friend how he defines quality. This very farm-based analogy was his response: “I can give you a cow pie and tell you its quality. If you want to hang it on a wall, you'll tell me to go to ****. If you want to fertilize your garden you'll want a bag of the stuff. I would base quality on traditional made thing with A. Is it traditional. B. How well it works for intended purpose.” He added, “quality is based on what its intent is. If it’s a pretty object to be hung on a wall the quality is the aesthetic look. If its to be used its the resilience of the blade and how the handle FEELS (not looks).” Not a bad beginning, I think. That in mind, here’s what else I told him I’m looking for:

FUNCTIONALITY:
• I could, at least in theory, take the piece and, well, use it! There is a caveat though: There are plenty of examples of knives that are used in traditional cultures not for regular cutting, but for ceremonial or religious or superstitious purposes- for example as a talisman against evil or a sign of initiation. These pieces would be just fine because of their traditional value, which to me trumps their value as and edged cutting tool. After all, it’s their intended, traditional function. That goes back to my friend’s response. It also brings me to…

CULTURE, TRADITION AND HISTORY OF BOTH THE STYLE AND THE SPECIFIC PIECE IN QUESTION
• Pieces should:
o be part of, and convey, the culture they came out of, and its history.
o be made in the traditional style of a local culture (whether that be the old style or its LEGITIMATE modern continuation- see below).
• The story/history of the piece- my part of the story, the makers’ and sellers’ parts in it, and its place in the native culture and history- are key to a piece’s intrinsic value to me. Does this tradition stretch back to much earlier times? All the better! That brings me to…

PERSONAL CONNECTION:
• I place an extremely high value on going there in person to get them from the maker, at least for modern pieces. The harder it is to get to a place, and the more difficult the process, the more value I place on the piece.
o (That brings me to this problem: you need to know what the traditional, good ones are in order to pick something you can truly be proud to have gone there and gotten yourself. Hence, my original post.)
o (As a side note and good example, I have a well worn, dull, rusty old spear from the Philippines with no embellishment which I highly value. Why? Because I went there, connected with locals, went on a mini-expedition into the mountainous, rural and undeveloped heart of a backwards island on the back of a local friend’s friend’s motorcycle over hours worth of really rough two track snaking through jungle, hunted for old swords and found this by accident in the process. I have a video of my guide/motorcycle driver/interpreter/now friend interpreting from the local dialect as the previous owner stood in front of his hut and explained how it had been used in WWII against the Japanese, among other things. It was clearly not a sales pitch! The personal connection with the piece, and the man who was one in a line of owners stretching back into history, makes this a piece very close to my heart, and one of my most prized posessions.)

BEAUTY (AND UNIQUENESS)
• Pieces should:
o be beautiful pieces of art, and by that I mean refined and elegant, traditionally cultural pieces, NOT gaudy or touristy things. At the very least, it should be a good example of the traditional craftsmanship and artistry of the culture. I prize this highly!
o preferably stand out from other pieces.
o Not be mass produced or low quality pieces of workmanship (again leading back to my original post). I prize the sweat, muscle, skill and passion a truly skilled artisan has poured into a hand-made piece.

MONETARY ISSUES
• I’m not looking at these in terms of resale value. I'd rather keep them a whole lifetime, and then see them become heirlooms or something. That said, the good ones tend to be the expensive ones, and I figure I'll only be there once (or at least, once in this stage of my own story), and I can afford the money because 10 years from now I'll miss the knife more than the money.

QUALITY OVER QUANTITY:
• I will ALWAYS buy one good one over two so-so’s.

In other words, if you think like an anthropologist, art lover and a historian, and throw in a little Indian Jones, you’ll be close to understanding what I’m looking for! ;^)

As for your point about its value at the time of production vs. now, I suppose I’d make a personal call on that on a case by case basis- though I’d love more discussion on this! Your point about how people see it in today’s terms is also a good one. I should mention that, while I’ve mostly only had the opportunity to collect modern interpretations of traditional styles to date, it’s by no means my only focus! Historical pieces would be great, as would swords and not just the (mostly) daggers I’ve collected so far.

One last thing, about what you said about fit, finish and functionality, I think I’ve said plenty about my take on functionality, but could you say more about fit and finish?

Thanks again for the great response!