? Chinese knife daosi

[Shakethetrees]

Hello all, this turned up today in a box that I was unpacking.

I got it years ago from an estate sale of a family of Italian descent with roots in San Francisco.

I know that the lady from who's estate this came directly out of ran a grocery/butcher shop many years ago and had a lot of knives, all run of the mill, but good quality professional grade butcher knives of various sizes and shapes, except for this one and another that I believe is a Russian trade knife from the Northern California coast/Russian River area. Whenever I locate it I will post it as well.

I couldn't pass 'em up!

To me this knife has the proportions of a Chinese knife with the thick guard, somewhat odd pommel and overall "feel" of a 19th century Chinese knife, (daosi, if my pinyin is still correct!) several others of which I have that are without question from there.

In researching I came across a site that explores Chinese gangs in San Francisco known as "Highbinders", with pictures of their weapons seized whenever they were rounded up in raids by SF law enforcement.

My last attempt at posting a website was a dismal failure, but I will try again soon.

I just wanted to get this image up to see if there's any interest in commenting on it.

[spiral]

Looks quite possibly one of the San Francisco Chinese Bowies, tong knives to me.{Not my field though.}

Was the website you mention one of Bens kung fu tea articles?

Hes done some great stuff on both kukri & triad weapons.

Spiral

[Shakethetrees]

Yes, it was titled, "Tools of the trade: the use of firearms and traditional weapons among the Tongs of San Francisco 1877-1878".

It's an easy website to loose yourself in for a little while. Lots of interesting links to follow if you're into Chinese weapons.

[David]

Is this the illustration of Highbinders weapons you mentioned? This is not my area, so i could be way off base here, but your knife, with it's Bowie-style clip point may not be of Chinese origin.
Here is what was written there about Highbinders' weapons.
“The weapons of the Highbinder are all brought from China, with the exception of the hatchet and the pistol. The illustration shows a collection of Chinese knives and swords taken from criminals, and now in the possession of the San Francisco police. The murderous weapon is what is called the double sword. Two swords, each about two feet long, are worn in a single scabbard. A Chinese draws these, one in each hand, and chops his way through a crowd of enemies. Only one side is sharpened, but the blade, like that of all the Chinese knives, is ground to a razor edge. An effective weapon at close quarters is the two-edged knife, usually worn in a leather sheath. The handle is of brass, generally richly ornamented, while the blade is of the finest steel. Most of the assassinations in Chinatown have been committed with this weapon, one blow being sufficient to ensure a mortal wound. The cleaver used by the Highbinders is smaller and lighter than the ordinary butcher’s cleaver. The iron club, about a foot and a half long, is enclosed in a sheath, and worn at the side like a sword. Another weapon is a curious sword with a large guard for the hand. The hatchet is usually of American make, but ground as sharp as a razor.

The coat of mail shown is the sketch, which was taken from a Chinese Highbinder, is of cloth, heavily padded with layers of rice paper that make it proof against a bullet, or even a rifle ball. This garment is worn by the most desperate men when they undertake a peculiarly dangerous bit of assassination. More common than this is the leather wristlet. This comes halfway up to the elbow, and pieces of iron inserted in the leather serve to ward off even a heavy stroke of a sword or hatchet.” (Feb 13, 1887. Harper’s Weekly. P. 103).

[Shakethetrees]

Somewhere I saw a Chinese daosi style knife illustrated that was made by Will & Finks of SF during the mid 19th c. I don't recall if the blade was a clipped point or a traditional point typically found on these knives.

I do remember that the pommel was the typical clipped-corner cube that is almost ubiquitous to daosi. My pommel's a strange form that I've never seen anywhere else.

I'm not in any way hinting that mine could have been made by W&F. Wherever it came from it appears to be the product of a small shop. Could it be, with its various anomalies, a knife that was made here in the US, from a memory of a daosi for a Chinese customer by American smith?

With the drastic language differences, a basic description verbalized to an American blacksmith may well have left the clip point and pommel up for interpretation.

When (and if!) I find the picture of the W&F knife, I will post it.

[ausjulius]

the knife looks the typical type of mexican bowie , not the scorpion tip mexican form but the bowies mimicking the english bowies of the era (which were mimicking the mexican scorpion tip in turn )
id say mexican but there is the heavy round guard, everything else says mexican , but the guards typically on mexican knives have a established for and bowies with brass guards typically have case guards with one ball at either side, although that being said its a minor discrepancy

[Shakethetrees]

I have owned several and seen many other Mexican bowies as you describe. This isn't one. The grip is not shaped right for a Mexican knife, the guard is too thick, and the overall proportions aren't right. I have other Chinese knives that I will find and post for comparison.

[Shakethetrees]

I found what I was looking for first try!

Sorry for the crummy images, but I'm still working on the resizing technique. I am saving a raw size image on my camera and resizing from the photo stream on my iPad.

Suggestions?

Here is another, undeniably Chinese daosi I picked up years ago.

No clipped point, two clip outs at the ricasso, but otherwise similar in size and proportion to the earlier posting.

The thick guard, extended pommel and form of the grip, blade to hilt ratio and width overall bear striking similarities to the first knife.

The first has a western style ricasso, no clips, but a clipped point.

Now, it's y'all's turn!

[Shakethetrees]

I forgot one photo!

Here are the two knives together.

[Ian]

These seem superficially similar but are actually distinctly different in hilt, guard and blade design.

The bottom one in your last picture looks European-based to me--possibly Spanish colonial as already mentioned.

Ian.

[Robert]

I tried to clean up the last photo a bit, but this is the best that I could do. I also believe that this is not Chinese. It looks more like knives that I have seen coming from Mexico to me.