St. Peter's Dagger

Jim McDougall · 6th August 2014, 06:22 PM

Since this is what appears to be a masterfully crafted dagger from Italy and probably 16th century, is it not possible that this might be a votive relic commemorating St Peter of Verona, who was a Dominican I believe, but was assassinated in around 1252, thus 13th century.
He was an inquisitor during the Albigensian crusades in France and was murdered by Cathars, and iconographic images of him show an axe imbedded in his head and a dagger to the chest, hence the dagger is sometimes symbolically referenced to him.

The Italian (North Italy) dagger in the central blade motif carries as noted what I perceive as Ottoman motif and resembles similar style seen on many edged weapons in India (Mughals) and other Central Asian regions. The rosette in the center resembles varying floral forms in this manner popular as motif in Italian edged weapons in the 16th c and later.
The hilt again resembles certain Ottoman and Central Asian form which seems to have diffused widely as well into areas farther east.

The very interesting discussion on St Peter (the Apostle) some 12 centuries earlier, refers to his sword, which was termed the Malchus sword, and votive examples of this exist in several cases in religious holdings, one I believe in Poland. Naturally while they are regarded as genuinely the actual weapon, there are notable disputes regarding the exact true nature of the weapon used in this event.

Ian · 7th August 2014, 12:16 AM

Given the Venetian connection with its location in St. Mark's Cathedral, could this knife be celebrating the works of St. Peter Orseolo? The man rose through a military career to become Doge of Venice, rebuilt St. Mark's at his own expense, then chucked it all in for the life of a monk. His life considerably predates this knife, however.

"Peter Orseolo, of Rivo Alto, Italy, served as commander of the Venetian navy before becoming Doge of Venice in 976. In this office he rebuilt the fire-ravaged Saint Mark’s Cathedral, funding the work from his own wealth. From Constantinople he obtained for the cathedral’s high altar what is considered the earliest known example of a gold altar cloth. He also founded a hospice for pilgrims. But after governing for only two years, Peter suddenly disappeared from the city during the night of September 1-2, 978. He fled his prestigious station to devote the rest of his life to God, traveling over five hundred miles westward to enter the Benedictine monastery of Cuxa, at the foot of the eastern Pyrenees, along the French-Spanish border. As he neared the monastery, Peter took off his shoes and walked the remaining steps of the journey bare-footed. As a monk, he excelled in humility, devotion to prayer, charity, and self-denial. Thereafter, Peter’s zeal for even greater perfection prompted him to obtain permission to live in solitude a short distance from the monastery." (see http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=5620)

Ian.

Jim McDougall · 7th August 2014, 01:39 AM

Excellent alternative solution which has been well presented, and of course may well be the case as the location in which it is held certainly seems to have associated significance. It does not seem that the period of the knife itself not necessarily aligned with that of the Saint himself should be a factor as these appear to be votive relics. It is unfortunate they do not offer more substantial data in describing the piece, as it is quite apparent there is more than one St.Peter.

Oliver Pinchot · 7th August 2014, 04:57 PM

Gentlemen,

The form of the blade and chiseled motifs, fullering and the shape of the grip all support a mid-late 15th century Ottoman attribution. I wish the pic was clearer; the motifs decorating the grip would prove illuminating.

Oliver

A. G. Maisey · 7th August 2014, 10:53 PM

Oliver, we're lucky to have any photo at all.

Photos in this part of the Basilica are strictly forbidden.

David · 8th August 2014, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

I wish the pic was clearer; the motifs decorating the grip would prove illuminating.

Oliver, i've turned it B&W and opened up a the shadows a bit. Not ideal, but it may help a little.

Oliver Pinchot · 8th August 2014, 03:14 AM

It's certainly a help, David, thanks!
Alan, did you take the pic? Wondering how large it is.

Battara · 8th August 2014, 04:40 AM

Good point - does feel Ottoman.

7th August 2014, 12:16 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,710	Perhaps St. Peter Orseolo Given the Venetian connection with its location in St. Mark's Cathedral, could this knife be celebrating the works of St. Peter Orseolo? The man rose through a military career to become Doge of Venice, rebuilt St. Mark's at his own expense, then chucked it all in for the life of a monk. His life considerably predates this knife, however. "Peter Orseolo, of Rivo Alto, Italy, served as commander of the Venetian navy before becoming Doge of Venice in 976. In this office he rebuilt the fire-ravaged Saint Mark’s Cathedral, funding the work from his own wealth. From Constantinople he obtained for the cathedral’s high altar what is considered the earliest known example of a gold altar cloth. He also founded a hospice for pilgrims. But after governing for only two years, Peter suddenly disappeared from the city during the night of September 1-2, 978. He fled his prestigious station to devote the rest of his life to God, traveling over five hundred miles westward to enter the Benedictine monastery of Cuxa, at the foot of the eastern Pyrenees, along the French-Spanish border. As he neared the monastery, Peter took off his shoes and walked the remaining steps of the journey bare-footed. As a monk, he excelled in humility, devotion to prayer, charity, and self-denial. Thereafter, Peter’s zeal for even greater perfection prompted him to obtain permission to live in solitude a short distance from the monastery." (see http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=5620) Ian. Last edited by Ian; 7th August 2014 at 12:34 AM.

7th August 2014, 04:57 PM	#4
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 476	Gentlemen, The form of the blade and chiseled motifs, fullering and the shape of the grip all support a mid-late 15th century Ottoman attribution. I wish the pic was clearer; the motifs decorating the grip would prove illuminating. Oliver Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 7th August 2014 at 05:24 PM.

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6th August 2014, 06:22 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,851	Since this is what appears to be a masterfully crafted dagger from Italy and probably 16th century, is it not possible that this might be a votive relic commemorating St Peter of Verona, who was a Dominican I believe, but was assassinated in around 1252, thus 13th century. He was an inquisitor during the Albigensian crusades in France and was murdered by Cathars, and iconographic images of him show an axe imbedded in his head and a dagger to the chest, hence the dagger is sometimes symbolically referenced to him. The Italian (North Italy) dagger in the central blade motif carries as noted what I perceive as Ottoman motif and resembles similar style seen on many edged weapons in India (Mughals) and other Central Asian regions. The rosette in the center resembles varying floral forms in this manner popular as motif in Italian edged weapons in the 16th c and later. The hilt again resembles certain Ottoman and Central Asian form which seems to have diffused widely as well into areas farther east. The very interesting discussion on St Peter (the Apostle) some 12 centuries earlier, refers to his sword, which was termed the Malchus sword, and votive examples of this exist in several cases in religious holdings, one I believe in Poland. Naturally while they are regarded as genuinely the actual weapon, there are notable disputes regarding the exact true nature of the weapon used in this event.

7th August 2014, 01:39 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,851	Excellent alternative solution which has been well presented, and of course may well be the case as the location in which it is held certainly seems to have associated significance. It does not seem that the period of the knife itself not necessarily aligned with that of the Saint himself should be a factor as these appear to be votive relics. It is unfortunate they do not offer more substantial data in describing the piece, as it is quite apparent there is more than one St.Peter.

7th August 2014, 10:53 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,209	Oliver, we're lucky to have any photo at all. Photos in this part of the Basilica are strictly forbidden.

8th August 2014, 03:14 AM	#7
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 476	It's certainly a help, David, thanks! Alan, did you take the pic? Wondering how large it is.

8th August 2014, 04:40 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,397	Good point - does feel Ottoman.