The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Gavin Nugent]

Too funny...

The fighting sword type has been presented in form and in theory, yet you do not embrace it....you do not seek to explore it, only refute the data provided with wild guesses, long indirect stories and no facts to support further wild claims.

Your stories about what I had presented have also been changed and swapped around within the 17 months this thread has been running...and then without honour addressed in a most distasteful manner....

Now the hard questions I pose are passed in full and other's questions are answered with so much fat any hope of a straight answer is lost.

it is all good fun. do continue.

Post Script; the entire notion of dances swords in a modern context is wonderful and embraced. But to go beyond the 19th century, the discussion should be "Oman swords danced with", knowing many types were used over time. The long handled straight sword was used for both fighting and dancing..it is all rather clear.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The dancing sword was part of the tribal infantrymans kit.

Please refresh my memory, perhaps I read too quick...where is this historically referenced?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Oh I almost forgot... No, I'm not a liar.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Shalom Ibrahim.

To save the repetition of typing...

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Oh I almost forgot... No, I'm not a liar.

No, you are not... you are a person, to whom a false quotation means "to break a few eggs along the way" (quote Ibrahiim al Balooshi).

And that together with your scholarly attitude.

[Andrew]

Okay, gentlemen. Here is how this is going to work.

The next person (or persons) who is unable to continue this "debate" in a neutral, objective manner will cause this thread to be locked, and will receive a 10 day suspension of posting privileges.

This means you should studiously avoid including any comment within your post that the least aggravated among us might construe as rude, inflammatory, ad hominem, a "dig", etc. Perhaps you might even consider limiting your comments to---wait for it---the merits of the other posters' comments, rather than the posters themselves.

We rapidly approach critical mass here...

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Forum ~ The well documented detail of the flexible dancing sword can be seen at the fine reference from David viz; http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104401332677 and until I can trace the reference by H Ingrams who it can be seen at my post above was a fine historian who wrote the book on Zanzibar and in fact another load of anecdotes on Hadramaut ..who knows maybe it is one of those references that got crossed in the system though if my memory serves me well I am almost certain it was on the subject of Manga ...a structure I had never heard about until I wrote the reference in Kattara for comments...a while ago but researchers know well my predicament and that when it turns up I will place it here.

Meanwhile the Omani Dancing Sword wrongly or mistakenly mis-reported down the ages from the early 18th C by the half dozen or so visitors to Oman continues to stretch the imagination unabated though hopefully with restraint and honourability amongst men...

I repeat that at the start I was so taken in by the furore and warlike nature of the sword in its mimic fight that I too thought it was a fighting weapon.

Having looked at hundreds of blades I have seen none that qualify as battle worthy. I have spoken to many many Omani people in and out of the Souk and examined blades there and in the Museums where I have seen no battle blades ... that is stuff blades ...moreover they are bendy to over 90 degrees some more or less than others by a few degrees. They are very flexible... and clearly this blade type is no fighter...not only because the question has been asked here where they just laugh at the notion but because it simply doesn't stack up ... A rigid blade would make mincemeat of this in a real contest... moreover it is the famed dancer of Funun traditional dancing...and despite its sharp edges it simply cannot be something it is not.

To date no known battle sword in this configuration exists except in the imagination of the early 19th C visitors etc but people are doubly hoodwinked by those narratives and the appearance in Souks of the Ethiopian blade ... please allow me to smile at this point... its amazing.... Where was I..?. Oh yes the Ethiopian blade rehilted on the Omani longhilt from about 1970.

Some forum members have alluded to this blade or a fighting blade with a thick stiff blade ...that is built like a dancing sword ..It does not exist in reality as a historical fact...It is a red herring. Tribal soldiers carried the Sword and Terrs as part of their equipment since they were required to do pageant and saluting with it all the time and to stay fit the mimic fight was quite useful but done more in the pageant...in The Funun as at the reference at the top of this post.

Anyone who is somehow able to conjure up a completely unknown weapon of this description will become instantly famous ... An as yet undiscovered fighting sword of Oman. Those individuals who reckon it exists are requested in the time honoured way; to prove it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Noted in full Andrew. Thank you. Ive been doing my best...

iechyd da boyo Ibrahim!

To further help your reference search for the elusive quote from an unknown place,source or origin { perhaps by the respected researcher Ingrams or perhaps not... }

Namely.....

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

These screen below captures may help.

Despite the whole book not being available online from google books, a word search on the relevant reference page brings up the references, even for pages that are not officially available.

linky to the book of words.

Its a very useful tool, I found so anyway.

Fascinatingly the relevant song & dance chapters you citied are also complete! {Rather than having to use the internal word search function.}

{Its the 1931 edtion you original quoted before understandable uncertainty of your source set in.}

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Meanwhile the Omani Dancing Sword wrongly or mistakenly mis-reported down the ages from the early 18th C by the half dozen or so visitors to Oman continues to stretch the imagination unabated though hopefully with restraint and honourability amongst men... I repeat that at the start I was so taken in by the furore and warlike nature of the sword in its mimic fight that I too thought it was a fighting weapon. Having looked at hundreds of blades I have seen none that qualify as battle worthy. I have spoken to many many Omani people in and out of the Souk and examined blades there and in the Museums where I have seen no battle blades ... that is stuff blades ...moreover they are bendy to 90 degrees some less than others

Have you considered that the fact in your imagination & that of your trader friends & associates in fake Omani swords that all fighting blades are rigid, could be wrong?.

Historically in many cultures this is wrong! A blow from a razor sharp 30 inch or whatever blade of thin whippy spring steel construction will cut you to the bone, slide down the bone & remove great hanging pieces of flesh & sinew , slicing arteries as it does so.

Highly efficient against tribesmen peasants & slaves, {not to mention women & children. } {ref. page 144 in Ingrams excellent work..}wearing a thin dress of cotton at most.

That is a fact.

If you & your associates down at the dockside souks are unaware of it that's another thing. ...Have you contemplated that as possible Ibrahim? Perhaps a little wider research will help you there?

Skinny spring steels blades will strip you bare to the bone......If razor sharp of course...

Spiral

[spiral]

O yes, before I forget, Please if you ever find the elusive source of your statement re. Ingrams certainty that only straight dancing swords were used.

Please add it to this thread.... There many waiting to see the source in its entirety & properly referenced. As you know.. some people may be just a touch sceptical...

Its seems terrible to not be able to fathom the true source of such a critical & important statement, that so supported you in your 17 month long thread, particularily in your hour of need in the face of so much scepticism from myself & so many other forum members.

Hwyl fawr am nawr Ibrahim!

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

O yes, before I forget, Please if you ever find the elusive source of your statement re. Ingrams certainty that only straight dancing swords were used.

Please add it to this thread.... There many waiting to see the source in its entirety & properly referenced. As you know.. some people may be just a touch sceptical...

Its seems terrible to not be able to fathom the true source of such a critical & important statement, that so supported you in your 17 month long thread, particularily in your hour of need in the face of so much scepticism from myself & so many other forum members.

Hwyl fawr am nawr Ibrahim!

spiral

Salaams Spiral... I'm so glad you found the reference on page 205 as I thought I was going crackers ! How on earth I was supposed to have made that lot up is beyond me... So the reference is accurate viz as is the other reference by David(used in my second paragraph below) who quite correctly has seen the detail of the straight sword as belonging in my logical assessment or inference ... ie I know the sword was straight because that's the shape of the Funun sword. I hope you allow inference in the detective story of this sword... and insofar as written down transcript I trust you are aware of the unwritten history of the Funun.

On the subject of Funun and the straight sword see http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...=21104401332677 where it explains the weapon used in Razha. Consider what sword may have been first used in the Funun and in that regard the Old Omani Battle Sword fits... pre the Dynastic Sword or flexible dancer..

What this pair of references has effectively done is to close out any interlopers in the time frame. What it cannot show is what occured much later in 1970 when Oman opened the door into the late 20th Century and the through trade between souks flourished not least with blade rehilting which was quite prolific ...but the story has been told...

On with the show !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I repeat that at the start I was so taken in by the furore and warlike nature of the sword in its mimic fight that I too thought it was a fighting weapon.

Please look back along these roads, there is still much to see and consider.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Having looked at hundreds of blades I have seen none that qualify as battle worthy. I have spoken to many many Omani people in and out of the Souk and examined blades there and in the Museums where I have seen no battle blades ... that is stuff blades ...

What is a battle worthy blade to you? Please describe this.

Have a look here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcLH9p-mKsY

Jian are of a less broad elliptical cross section, sometimes diamond cross section and typically without fullers, take particular note of the flex.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

moreover they are bendy to over 90 degrees some more or less than others by a few degrees. They are very flexible... and clearly this blade type is no fighter...not only because the question has been asked here where they just laugh at the notion but because it simply doesn't stack up ...

But it does stack up. Would you like me to show you how an Omani straight sword, one you consider is for dance only, how it cuts in real life. You ask for proof, will this along with all the other written words from time past, convince you?

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

A rigid blade would make mincemeat of this in a real contest...

Study sword play please, the heavier blade will not make mincemeat of a lighter supple blade, the lighter supple blade is faster in the hand, like a razor and bends to its masters hand. The skilled warrior with such a light sword will conquer the enemy much quicker and without effort...the long handle offers a wonder twist in fighting too.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

moreover it is the famed dancer of Funun traditional dancing...and despite its sharp edges it simply cannot be something it is not.

Indeed it is famous in the funun, its origins and purpose as missed by you though.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

To date no known battle sword in this configuration exists

But it does, it stares you in the face and sits in your hands.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

except in the imagination of the early 19th C visitors etc but people are doubly hoodwinked by those narratives and the appearance in Souks of the Ethiopian blade ... please allow me to smile at this point... its amazing.... Where was I..?. Oh yes the Ethiopian blade rehilted on the Omani longhilt from about 1970.

It is amazing, very amazing, amazing only for the single blade type you have presented as a souk sword from Ethiopia, a very stout and standard fullered blade type of EU origins made for the Ethiopian market, not even close to the form this far of these fair Oman swords.
It is further amazing that the blade proportions and types of the Oman sword being discussed are not found in the Ethiopian sword forms. Of the 25+ forms I have handled over hundreds of Ethiopian swords and thousands more I have viewed, the blade type found in the Oman long handled sword it not one of them. I will not say they do not exist, there may be several examples from northern borders but the claim that Souks have remounted Ethiopian blade in long hilted Omani style, is to this point not shown or proved beyond your hearsay...which is contrary to the facts I note above.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Some forum members have alluded to this blade or a fighting blade with a thick stiff blade ...that is built like a dancing sword ..It does not exist in reality as a historical fact...It is a red herring. Tribal soldiers carried the Sword and Terrs as part of their equipment since they were required to do pageant and saluting with it all the time and to stay fit the mimic fight was quite useful but done more in the pageant...in The Funun as at the reference at the top of this post.

The long handled form carries both blade forms, heavy and light. Complete and further study will eventually lead you fact to your first thoughts about the sword.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Anyone who is somehow able to conjure up a completely unknown weapon of this description will become instantly famous ... An as yet undiscovered fighting sword of Oman. Those individuals who reckon it exists are requested in the time honoured way; to prove it.

Would you like my autograph :-) I can't take credit though, it has always been there.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ...I am fully aware of flexible blade use ... The Shotley Bridge maker hid one in his bowler hat and amazed onlookers at a trade show...I know many nations used such flexible weapons.. but you know that Omani dancing swords were never used in a battle ... In addition what you are trying to show is a firm stiff blade built along the same lines as the dancing sword~ that has never been part of history here. It never happened.

I have explained the story of the dancer in full ... I don't know any more info such is the vast degree of stuff I have presented from the Funun ~Omani tradition~ through Ingrams and Skeens notes above and all the details at the now famous summary on thread.

Cutting in half bamboo or watermellons does not prove the sword battle capable...or that it was used for fighting in the past... The edges were sharp for another reason... In honour etc as explained. The sword that did the damage was the Old Omani Battle Sword.

I think the request to show an old dancing sword is reasonable and I shall endeavor to do just that. There are however no in between swords or a ghost weapon that no one has noticed save the rehilt situation...which everyone is up in arms about when it is only human nature ...I estimate thousands were released onto world collections over the almost half decade of rehilting..This was done with Sanaa rehilts and Muscat work... in some cases expertly carried out. People are almost damning of the process but it happened and is still going on...does that mean the Muttrah people dont have good swords?..

Ha ! I can say that given the choice If I am in Muscat and its a spin up Museums or Muttrah Souk ... Take me to the souk any day! because amongst it all there are the genuine items...and in fact...they also have provided the real McCoy on occasions to the Museums !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

I don't feel hat or belt swords even need a mention here, flexible swords, worn suspended in the open real world are not parallel.

The full dancer story has its merit here, only in that the dancing with a sword is a long tradition. The use of a sword in the Funun in noted...But regarding the types of blades and use of the sword in the past, nothing thus far, has proved the sword type under discussion was "ONLY" used to dance.
Nothing thus far has proved the sword of exact same visual form that carries a heavier blade is from the Souks.
To show you this detail, also please bring your best Souk fake to the table too and we can then compare it pound for pound, however make sure it is the absolute best though, in proper old and complete dress, with all the silver trimming of the best dance sword you care to show, anything less is not worth wasting our time on....you know, the type you said carry all old original hilts and fittings.
Please also refer to my notes about the Ethiopian sword types and surprise me, show me one of these old blades that mirror the Oman swords shape in native context or freshly arrived Souk port complete and intact from Ethiopia.
I have nothing against what they do in the Souk, however, I do and have noted that the Souk copy sword shown is in bad taste. It does not, from the sinlge image presented, even resemble an Omani sword.

Thank you.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The edges were sharp for another reason... In honour etc as explained.

To further my previous posts, can you also please quote the historical passages/references where it notes Omani swords were only sharpened for honour of forefathers. I can not find it

Thanks

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Spiral... I'm so glad you found the reference on page 205 as I thought I was going crackers ! How on earth I was supposed to have made that lot up is beyond me... .

No one doubted that reference or said it didn't exist.

Your Engish is better than many peoples born in England. you know that.

This is the one I repeatedly asked you to justify.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

You know... the one that doesn't exist, but you repeatedly stated did even when challenged.

spiral

[Andrew]

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[Andrew]

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