whatisit

LJ · 28th April 2014, 11:49 AM

I'm puzzled by this spear: not even sure if it belongs in the European Armoury rather than Ethnographic Weapons forum. The length 163 cm; wooden shaft smooth, polished, slightly tapering towards each end. Socketted head; no pins through the socket. Three bands of copper inlay at the end of the socket. The socketted iron butt has a very distinctive flred flattened end.

I can see no armourer's marks, but have a suspicion (only because I can't think of anything else!) this might be for one of the British Imperial Army units - possibly Indian cavalry, or a Camel Corps ??

Any suggestions ?

spiral · 28th April 2014, 08:42 PM

Not my field but Id have guessed Taureg?

Spiral

LJ · 28th April 2014, 10:02 PM

Many thanks for the suggestion. I did consider that it might be a Tuareg Allarh (because of the flaring end of the iron butt), but I wasn't wholly convinced. Perhaps my first instinct was right after all.

Richard G · 29th April 2014, 06:40 PM

How about French colonial? the famous Spahis and that kind of thing. Just a guess, but that Tuareg type butt seems most unusual for a British spear.
Regards
Richard

LJ · 29th April 2014, 07:14 PM

Also, although I raised the possibility of it being for a mounted soldier, I've had my doubts about that. It's only 5ft 4 inches long, much shorter than you would expect for a cavalry lance.

Any expert out there on French colonial weaponry ?

spiral · 29th April 2014, 07:35 PM

Years ago I had a Taureg spear... {Only ever owned 3 spears..

}It also had 3 inlayed brass rings.

I personally don't think it colonial army either British or French. I think Tribal North west Africa... Taureg or similar...

But I would have thought some people on the forum, who specialise in such things, would be more certain or pass comment?

Spiral

Iain · 29th April 2014, 10:30 PM

Better images would help. Including the entire spear. It is certainly west African. Tuareg is possible but so are a few other groups.

Emanuel · 30th April 2014, 02:39 PM

Hello,

Is this not from Madagascar? I thought that particular flush socket-shaft construction with collars and flared but was a distinct feature of Malagasy spears.

Regards,
Emanuel

LJ · 30th April 2014, 06:28 PM

Madagascar - yes, you've scored a direct hit ! Looking for "Madagscar spear" on Google comes up with a spear-collectors site that comments "The warriors carried elaborate spears, which remind on Tuareg or Bornu spears with copper and brass inlay and a flat spear shoe. The shaft is from two tone hardwood". Also, checking the British Museum online database reveals a few images of Madagascar spears that are identical to this one.

Many thanks to all for their thoughts and comments

Iain · 30th April 2014, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Hello,

Is this not from Madagascar? I thought that particular flush socket-shaft construction with collars and flared but was a distinct feature of Malagasy spears.

Regards,
Emanuel

The Madagascar examples seem to invariably have broad heads, a bit different than this. Leading me to think more along west African lines.

LJ · 1st May 2014, 12:40 PM

The Madagascan spear heads were not always broad. This photo of a Sakalava man from the book 'Living Races of Mankind' (volume 2, p. 482) shows him holding spears where the heads are slightly wider than the man's fingers.

I think a key difference - which would involve comparing spears with good provenances from Madagascar and West Africa - could be the form of the butt, and especially the shape when viewed in profile. One other feature, which seems to be common on the Madagascan spears in the B.M., is that the seams of the sockets 'gape': which is the case in this spear. However, I haven't seen enough West African spears to know whether the socket seams commonly overlap / meet / gape.

If more photos would help, I will have access to the collection tomorrow.

Iain · 1st May 2014, 04:09 PM

Great ID!

Not the first time I've confused these.

Tim Simmons · 1st May 2014, 05:34 PM

Also rather like these which I no longer have.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=sahel+spears

Jim McDougall · 1st May 2014, 05:41 PM

Excellent interaction and exchange on this thread!!!! Very informative and great to see participants countering entries helpfully and courteously.
Now we have this spear identified correctly and with interesting potential for misidentification revealed accordingly to help future researchers and collectors
Nicely done gentlemen! Thank you!

Iain · 2nd May 2014, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Also rather like these which I no longer have.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=sahel+spears

Lovely examples Tim, I think the one is possibly Dogon. I have seen images of Dogon dancers carrying spears with similar brass "side plates" on the shaft.

28th April 2014, 11:49 AM	#1
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	whatisit I'm puzzled by this spear: not even sure if it belongs in the European Armoury rather than Ethnographic Weapons forum. The length 163 cm; wooden shaft smooth, polished, slightly tapering towards each end. Socketted head; no pins through the socket. Three bands of copper inlay at the end of the socket. The socketted iron butt has a very distinctive flred flattened end. I can see no armourer's marks, but have a suspicion (only because I can't think of anything else!) this might be for one of the British Imperial Army units - possibly Indian cavalry, or a Camel Corps ?? Any suggestions ? Attached Images

1st May 2014, 12:40 PM	#11
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	The Madagascan spear heads were not always broad. This photo of a Sakalava man from the book 'Living Races of Mankind' (volume 2, p. 482) shows him holding spears where the heads are slightly wider than the man's fingers. I think a key difference - which would involve comparing spears with good provenances from Madagascar and West Africa - could be the form of the butt, and especially the shape when viewed in profile. One other feature, which seems to be common on the Madagascan spears in the B.M., is that the seams of the sockets 'gape': which is the case in this spear. However, I haven't seen enough West African spears to know whether the socket seams commonly overlap / meet / gape. If more photos would help, I will have access to the collection tomorrow. Attached Images

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28th April 2014, 08:42 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Not my field but Id have guessed Taureg? Spiral

28th April 2014, 10:02 PM	#3
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	Many thanks for the suggestion. I did consider that it might be a Tuareg Allarh (because of the flaring end of the iron butt), but I wasn't wholly convinced. Perhaps my first instinct was right after all.

29th April 2014, 06:40 PM	#4
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 405	How about French colonial? the famous Spahis and that kind of thing. Just a guess, but that Tuareg type butt seems most unusual for a British spear. Regards Richard

29th April 2014, 07:14 PM	#5
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	Also, although I raised the possibility of it being for a mounted soldier, I've had my doubts about that. It's only 5ft 4 inches long, much shorter than you would expect for a cavalry lance. Any expert out there on French colonial weaponry ?

29th April 2014, 07:35 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Years ago I had a Taureg spear... {Only ever owned 3 spears.. }It also had 3 inlayed brass rings. I personally don't think it colonial army either British or French. I think Tribal North west Africa... Taureg or similar... But I would have thought some people on the forum, who specialise in such things, would be more certain or pass comment? Spiral

29th April 2014, 10:30 PM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Better images would help. Including the entire spear. It is certainly west African. Tuareg is possible but so are a few other groups.

30th April 2014, 02:39 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Is this not from Madagascar? I thought that particular flush socket-shaft construction with collars and flared but was a distinct feature of Malagasy spears. Regards, Emanuel

30th April 2014, 06:28 PM	#9
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	Madagascar - yes, you've scored a direct hit ! Looking for "Madagscar spear" on Google comes up with a spear-collectors site that comments "The warriors carried elaborate spears, which remind on Tuareg or Bornu spears with copper and brass inlay and a flat spear shoe. The shaft is from two tone hardwood". Also, checking the British Museum online database reveals a few images of Madagascar spears that are identical to this one. Many thanks to all for their thoughts and comments

1st May 2014, 04:09 PM	#12
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Great ID! Not the first time I've confused these.

1st May 2014, 05:34 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Also rather like these which I no longer have. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=sahel+spears

1st May 2014, 05:41 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Excellent interaction and exchange on this thread!!!! Very informative and great to see participants countering entries helpfully and courteously. Now we have this spear identified correctly and with interesting potential for misidentification revealed accordingly to help future researchers and collectors Nicely done gentlemen! Thank you!