Noth African sword

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by blue lander

It's so interesting that both of these swords have very similar markings, both were cut down in virtually the same configuration, and then his ends up heavily worn but in a beautiful nimcha and mine ends up lightly used but in a very crude mounting. I wonder how long that Nimcha is. Mine is 69cm OAL.

Thanks for the link on the Cross of St. James. In the Moorish application are there always 4 crosses? Mine has only 3. The half moon on his nimcha is a little different than mine too, it's facing a different direction.

Speaking of the half moon, I think I saw a picture of a Takouba with a nearly identical half moon on, but now I can't find the link.

I'm glad it's an "official" hilt style, to me it looked more like somebody tried to duplicate a machete handle. I haven't had any luck searching for Tunisian hilts on google, but I'll keep looking. I'm glad you decided not to bid on this one

Salaams blue lander .. I'm not sure about the moon being a half moon nor of it being a man in the moon face though clearly the European style inscribed on Toledo blades by Juan Martinez and Peter Munch(Peter Munich) were "man in the moon faces"...I think the later inscriptions copied onto Islamic region swords were of the new moon. Your moon comprises a moon (presumably new) and 3 new moons and possibly a sun..Peter Munch used moons as Talismans it is thought...see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=MOONS
The reason for 3 crosses not 4 is probably because of the fullers preventing a 4th stamp being put. Three is a very powerful talismanic construct...in different regions including the Fleur de Lys 'Trio in Juncta' and Islamic forms.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams blue lander .. I'm not sure about the moon being a half moon nor of it being a man in the moon face though clearly the European style inscribed on Toledo blades by Juan Martinez and Peter Munch(Peter Munich) were "man in the moon faces"...I think the later inscriptions copied onto Islamic region swords were of the new moon. Your moon comprises a moon (presumably new) and 3 new moons and possibly a sun..Peter Munch used moons as Talismans it is thought...see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=MOONS
The reason for 3 crosses not 4 is probably because of the fullers preventing a 4th stamp being put. Three is a very powerful talismanic construct...in different regions including the Fleur de Lys 'Trio in Juncta' and Islamic forms.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

It is a man in the moon, or half moon. These are very common in the region and consist of the curved back of the crescent, the face, often with a pronounced nose and the eye. This particular one is a little more rudimentary than some, but still of the general form.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

It is a man in the moon, or half moon. These are very common in the region and consist of the curved back of the crescent, the face, often with a pronounced nose and the eye. This particular one is a little more rudimentary than some, but still of the general form.

Salaams Iain, I am aware of the numerous moon inscriptions generally seen on swords in the region but wish to point out that there are two distinct versions (generally).

The first is the Peter Munch full obvious moon face and the second what I describe as the new moon basically struck. The moon in #1 is clearly struck with 3 inner new moon shapes. I think this became the style on African and Arabian(mainly Red Sea) blades copied from Europeans. I also think that although Peter Munch is considered to have struck the moons as some sort of majic association it was without the realization that this could indeed be a strong Talisman in other regions.

The full faced man in the moon are struck at source whereas the more rudimentary forms are done in local workshops.

My main point is that these may not be considered as half moons in Islamic areas since the half moon has little significance whereas the new moon is an entirely different subject.

For a couple of examples of copied moons see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments #326.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain, I am aware of the numerous moon inscriptions generally seen on swords in the region but wish to point out that there are two distinct versions (generally).

The first is the Peter Munch full obvious moon face and the second what I describe as the new moon basically struck. The moon in #1 is clearly struck with 3 inner new moon shapes. I think this became the style on African and Arabian(mainly Red Sea) blades copied from Europeans. I also think that although Peter Munch is considered to have struck the moons as some sort of majic association it was without the realization that this could indeed be a strong Talisman in other regions.

The full faced man in the moon are struck at source whereas the more rudimentary forms are done in local workshops.

My main point is that these may not be considered as half moons in Islamic areas since the half moon has little significance whereas the new moon is an entirely different subject.

For a couple of examples of copied moons see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments #326.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Of course talismanic symbols from Europe can take on different meanings in various regions. However even degenerate forms like this one, they still retain the essential characteristics of the man in the moon mark. In this case the semi circles used to stamp the face, are merely the easiest way for the craftsman to achieve the desired pattern as he is not using a complete stamp. The three elements combine to create the distinctive nasal feature.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Of course talismanic symbols from Europe can take on different meanings in various regions. However even degenerate forms like this one, they still retain the essential characteristics of the man in the moon mark. In this case the semi circles used to stamp the face, are merely the easiest way for the craftsman to achieve the desired pattern as he is not using a complete stamp. The three elements combine to create the distinctive nasal feature.

Salaams Iain ~ Thank you for your diagram illustrating the moon relating its so called facial character.

A lot of folks reading into arms of these regions will have no idea about the Talismanic or other marks on swords...but as you say (and I agree) "Of course talismanic symbols from Europe can take on different meanings in various regions".

If the moon is copied (onto African and Arabian Sword blades) Does the feature then take on another meaning altogether ? ... Is it then a man in the moon or something else? I suggest the latter... In which case it is not a man in the moon .. It becomes a Talismanic object reflecting a new moon in the sense of the region in which it now resides...something very different to its original application and meaning.

In the same way the cross may well have changed to a star or even a dot..

* . and the cross becomes a sign of light (the candle) The dot an indicator of the centre of the Universe...

For a couple of examples of copied moons see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments #326.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ~ Thank you for your diagram illustrating the moon relating its so called facial character.

It is what it is and it has a face. Usually when paired on face is open eyed the other winking. As I already stated these symbols can take on different meanings in different cultures, however the retention of the facial features speaks strongly to the lineage of the mark.

A new moon as far as I'm aware in Islamic art is not illustrated with a face... As seen in the one example you linked an image of where it is simply a crescent.

In the context of African blades the mark retained much of its original form because it was a hallmark of quality and not merely an illustrative symbol.

In short, marks can take on multiple meanings, sometimes outside of their original context. But when this much of the form is retained it speaks volumes as to the influence of the original application.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

It is what it is and it has a face. Usually when paired on face is open eyed the other winking. As I already stated these symbols can take on different meanings in different cultures, however the retention of the facial features speaks strongly to the lineage of the mark.

A new moon as far as I'm aware in Islamic art is not illustrated with a face... As seen in the one example you linked an image of where it is simply a crescent.

In the context of African blades the mark retained much of its original form because it was a hallmark of quality and not merely an illustrative symbol.

In short, marks can take on multiple meanings, sometimes outside of their original context. But when this much of the form is retained it speaks volumes as to the influence of the original application.

Salaams Iain,
So you agree that what we have here is quite an interesting linkage back to perhaps Juan Martinez, Toledo mid 16th C or Peter Munch Solingen 1595-1660, thus, a European Sword mark which has been transmitted onto trade blades and copied by local smiths all over the African region and Red Sea, Yemen etc in the last 250 years. The precisely named "man in the moon" insignia being copied and as a mark of excellence onto blades in the region and beyond. Originally probably placed with a magical quality being inferred... and reflected somewhat in the Islamic sense of Talismanic protection in the crescent moon illustration...with and without nose eyes mouth...

Thus it becomes a new moon in the afro/arabian sense from an original European man in the moon design.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.